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Post by blackhawk on Jul 13, 2019 11:54:15 GMT
Cool to see a topic about this wonderful book And now, weird questions! -How come the Nadziranim were able to create a Shadow Gate without the Moonstone? I know, the power of the Lake of Blood and all, but if it was possible to create Shadow Gates out of it, why the Darklords didn't do that earlier? I hope we get better explanations in the next books. In my opinion the power to open Shadow Gates is a new discovery: the knowledge of black magic by the nadziranim always been in growth and it has intensified greatly from the Darklords defeat (see all the events that happened in Magnamund particularly after the discoveries of the Claw of Naar). Like Lone Wolf says in this book, now Nadziranim are extremly dangerous foes, perhaps even more then the Darklords. At the time of the Darklords they were bound to obey their Masters who, even if they know how to open Shadow gates at the time (personally I don't think so by the way), there were no interest, in my opinion, in the Darklords to summon other evil entities that would probably have tried to subjugate them (see the Deathlord instance). Anyway this book is simply amazing with A LOT of background to discover even after three reading on my part ^. I'm really looking forward for what is going to happen
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Post by moonblade on Jul 18, 2019 0:51:01 GMT
I just finished my first readthrough of the book. Like some others of you are doing, I’m not actually playing so much as just trying to make a wise choice of decisions that will enable me to read the story and not die. I feel as though I’m not going to play through any of the final four books until the series is complete, and will just more or less be reading and re-reading and trying to put the puzzle pieces together slowly.
Initial thoughts:
1. I think it’s safe to say that a lot of the epic scope that many people thought was missing from the new order books as a whole has been restored. The writing is really lush, and gives you a good sense of the overwhelming odds stacked against this Kai master. Even the deaths have a great deal of creative energy put into them. When you die this time around, you may not even realize it until you turn the page and read down at least two more paragraphs!
2. It struck me as never before just how old the Old Guard really is. My first thought upon seeing Gwynian yet again was, “Just how old IS this guy?“ And of course, that question was answered. Whoa.
3. The callbacks are outstanding. Oriah. Whether to give an ally useful equipment or not. The magical horse. Arch Druid Kadrian. Serocca (and Sinay! Are they married yet?). The implication that we might see a reincarnation of Sun Eagle in Steel Hand, should he ultimately ascend the throne of Sommerlund. And my personal favorite, finding out that Lone Wolf and Black Hawk managed to sneak into Kaag and steal Nyxator’s hide and skull off the main gate without anyone noticing! I’m not sure if that was meant to be funny, but I certainly had a good laugh.
4. The return of the diabolical number puzzle. I thought I knew what the answer was within 15 seconds of looking at it, but sat down and took much longer on it upon reading that I should only give it one shot. I was glad to see that my initial answer turned out to be correct after really looking at it hard. It’s an uncanny feeling when you get the right answer based on your gut.
5. The ending with Jhudyth coming through for everyone really shook me. But truly, perhaps it should’ve been expected. There is a great deal of good within the world of Aon that has been corrupted to suit Naar. It seems only natural that at some point the forces of Kai and Ishir should be able to take items traditionally used to serve Naar and put them to good purposes.
6. Alberto del Lago’s art is damned good.
I definitely need to start a second readthrough.
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Post by wisestrider on Jul 22, 2019 0:49:03 GMT
Were Lone Wolf and Vanotar really considered to be born "Long ago"?
What if the prophesy is actually talking about a much earlier time and links right back to Sun Eagle and something that happened back when the Kai & Brotherhood of the Crystal Star were first founded?
And while I'm thinking about it how exactly did Right & Left handed magic come about in the first place?
It's implied there is a connection but what if at some point there was a single unified form of magic that later split into the 2 different paths?
What if there is a wizard (former member of the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star) who became the first of the Nadzirdarim?
Would Lone Wolf need to make a different choice to one made by Sun Eagle to make amends and fulfil the prophecy?
Interested in seeing where this goes but fun to speculate in the meantime.
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Post by firestone on Jul 22, 2019 19:45:17 GMT
Amazing book in all but one respect. Wonderful with it's depth and reuse of names and reintegration of previous strands of LW.
Replies first. General thoughts after.
Replies: "The implication that we might see a reincarnation of Sun Eagle in Steel Hand, should he ultimately ascend the throne of Sommerlund." - Was this when Steel Hand said 'death of my cousins'? (I initially thought 'shouldn't he mean Kai BROTHERS?') that would be wonderful. Have I previously missed hints/info that he is of Royal Blood?
Blazer - one name. Actually Firestone was one name. Never split.
....speaking of whom, my NO GM has always been Firestone as early on with the novels and late GM books, he was the most interestingly glossed over character. But when you learn about HOW he(/they, maybe other GMs?) died!?!? And anti-Kai disciplines?! And the assassin got away to defer it to a later book?! Wow. My only sadness is that anti-Kai disciplines weren't part of our immediate debrief and LW should've been told ASAP to help counter it. It needs to be part of the start of 31.
As regards the Prophecy. It must be Vonotar+LW. Vonotar was 'banished' through the D Gate. Likely Jhudyth will either be taken over by his spirit during her studies OR actually be the means of understanding that the spirit that came through at the end wasn't Vashna but Vonotar. His realm eternal will be the afterlife and LWs will be peace for humankind as they together finally achieve the tipping of the balance of the whole Universe (Magnamund being the tipping point for the whole universe), as Vonotar actually wanted. Vonotar believed a prophecy and thought that he was the fulfillment of the warrior/mage prophecy. (Novels). But what is more likely is that it takes the two of them to fight/fuse and stave off Naar to tip the balance.
General thoughts: Wonderful but too easy. On the last fight with Steel Hand I was up to CS 76 (would've been 83 except for their Psi total immunity) and had a plus 17 over them. So using the official newsletter extended Combat Results Table, I killed them in one roll. This was representative of the whole book. I never once took more than two rolls to win. Or ever lost more than ten ED. I never needed Star Ska or even the double damage enemy weapon OR the treble damage enemy weapon (maybe come in useful in last book?)
Quite simply, while I understand that repeat readers for the series shoukd be rewarded by Inclusion, if that results in cake-walk fights, then it's been designed badly. What should be happening is that the narrative identifies those with the older stuff or higher Kai levels and rewards them one moment and punishes them the next to offset the easy fights. It's just a matter of writing structure. You reward by having certain objects or levels that identify you, and the next page just cripples you with the loss of an old item or a more punishing fight.
Saying that, there was a wonderful moment when the narrative asked if I had any of 3 objects. I had none. That felt like I'd messed up. Pleasant feeling. I also didn't manage to get Steel Hand his Kai Weapon (definitely going to replay JUST to fix that).
I don't want an easy book. But I did have the most faithful read I'd ever imagined possible. I have some predictions for the end but I'll leave that for later.
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Post by moonblade on Jul 22, 2019 22:26:33 GMT
"The implication that we might see a reincarnation of Sun Eagle in Steel Hand, should he ultimately ascend the throne of Sommerlund." - Was this when Steel Hand said 'death of my cousins'? (I initially thought 'shouldn't he mean Kai BROTHERS?') that would be wonderful. Have I previously missed hints/info that he is of Royal Blood?. I am going to make an educated guess that you have not missed any hints prior. My reasoning for this is that Lone Wolf, being very familiar with the prophecy of the Black Moon, and also having experienced the rescue of Madelon firsthand, would never have sent Steel Hand to the Maakengorge on a mission to prevent Vashna’s resurrection if he had known in advance that Steel Hand could possibly fulfill all the terms of a proper sacrificial lamb. And it’s obviously far too important of a detail for us to have been notified of sooner, then left aside and forgotten about until this very convenient moment. I think it is most likely that no one knew the information except Steel Hand himself. Of course, it’s entirely also possible that Lone Wolf DID know in advance, and he will ruefully recall this instance in future as another example of hubris and shortsightedness. Our supreme Master can be shockingly human. ^__^
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Post by Lucy Van Pelt on Jul 23, 2019 6:16:33 GMT
Were Lone Wolf and Vanotar really considered to be born "Long ago"? What if the prophesy is actually talking about a much earlier time and links right back to Sun Eagle and something that happened back when the Kai & Brotherhood of the Crystal Star were first founded? And while I'm thinking about it how exactly did Right & Left handed magic come about in the first place? It's implied there is a connection but what if at some point there was a single unified form of magic that later split into the 2 different paths? What if there is a wizard (former member of the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star) who became the first of the Nadzirdarim? Would Lone Wolf need to make a different choice to one made by Sun Eagle to make amends and fulfil the prophecy? Interested in seeing where this goes but fun to speculate in the meantime. How old is Lone Wolf in BOook 30?
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Post by Black Cat on Jul 23, 2019 13:11:30 GMT
How old is Lone Wolf in BOook 30? According to the Newsletters, he was born in MS5035. Book 30 is set in MS5102, so he's 67.
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Post by Lucy Van Pelt on Jul 23, 2019 13:34:30 GMT
How old is Lone Wolf in BOook 30? According to the Newsletters, he was born in MS5035. Book 30 is set in MS5102, so he's 67. How old will lone wolf be in book 32 Stronger Together?
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Post by moonblade on Jul 24, 2019 21:34:29 GMT
Among other things I was very interested to see during my second readthrough are the hints that Kai Lords are not necessarily eunuchs, despite our most well-known member’s (in)famous celibacy, and the implication that Chaos creatures treated with kindness and respect will respond with trust and loyalty. I can’t help but feel as though those details are there for a reason, and I can’t wait to see comes of them. (And now I want to develop that Gourgaz story idea I had more than ever!)
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Post by Black Cat on Jul 25, 2019 19:14:05 GMT
How old will lone wolf be in book 32 Stronger Together? Depends of how much time will pass between book 30 and book 32! Let's not forget that Lone Wolf lost 10 Aon years for being away in other universes (9 in Daziarn, 1 on planet Aavaros in book 19, unknown time lost for being in Naar's Universe in book 20) and that, starting with book 13 (MS5075), he gets older by only 1 year for every 5 years that passes. So, he might be 67 in book 30, but he must look like a 30-35 years old guy. Among other things I was very interested to see during my second readthrough are the hints that Kai Lords are not necessarily eunuchs, despite our most well-known member’s (in)famous celibacy Well, it was something that Joe confirmed in various interviews already, although I can't find one at this time. However, in the Story so far of the newest version of book 1, it is said that some Kai Lords leave the monastery to go back home, which implies that they can go make a family.
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Post by GhostofLandar on Jul 26, 2019 6:45:07 GMT
I still hold to the Lone wolf/Vonotar interpretation. Why? Because it's the one with the most potent meaning for us as lifelong readers. Vonotar, the great Traitor to his people, exorcising himself (just as LW can exorcise spirits on Naar's home plane) in sorrow and regret for his actions (because he initially believed he was doing the RIGHT thing but didn't know how he'd be corrupted) would be...well, I didn't think about it at all as possibility.
Years ago, before I even received Storms of Chai, I wrote Joe about how I saw things unfolding, and I'm sure I'm not the only one with ideas. Lone Wolf will not die, he will "ascend" at worst and have an eternal dimension on the Plane of Light. Or will he rule Sommerlund as its eternal king? (or rule elsewhere as the guardian of Magnamund?) Will Vonotar rule a realm in the plane of light for helping seal Naar's Doom on Magnamund in spite of all his evil? Stay tuned folks but I'm excited. I was not expecting Vonotar to make an appearance at all, but I think there's something fitting, after all the bloodshed, all the killing and disappointment and betrayal that one of these human characters truly feel remorse and their spirit head towards redemption.
I truly hope Ben and Vincent don't pull a Ruin johnson and say "your warrior and magician prophecy theory sucks" and kill of Lone Wolf (but not before ruining his character) and then make this all a joke. When people can predict/anticipate your endings, it means your characters have an arc and logic, not that you're being a bad writer.
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Post by kurz81 on Jul 28, 2019 17:56:50 GMT
I would like to ask your opinion about the final boss appearing at the end of the book 30. Do you believe he is a mix of Vashna + Chaos Master + Lake of Blood spirit energy? Just a new darklord seems reductive...
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Post by blackhawk on Aug 1, 2019 12:59:55 GMT
I would like to ask your opinion about the final boss appearing at the end of the book 30. Do you believe he is a mix of Vashna + Chaos Master + Lake of Blood spirit energy? Just a new darklord seems reductive... I think it's something like that, yes; one thing is sure: considering what it does at the end of the book it is an extremely powerful foe perhaps like a Demigod. I think it is way far beyond the ability of the Grand Master. Concerning the Chaos Master I did a personal "lucubration" which is partially connected to the Vonotar instance. I too think the wizard mentioned in the scroll is actually Vonotar. Since we are into huge spoiler thread: after you defeat the Tzomah and before it is taken into the shadow gate something or someone attracts its presence and we hear a thin and fragile human laugh. I have the feeling that this human is Vonotar somehow survived and now returned in the Magnamund (of course, I also might be utterly wrong ;D). One of the other open topics that I thinked off, is the presence of both the Claw of Naar and the Eye of Agarash in the planet. I can't immagine a fully safe Magnamund with these evil artifacts still around. Another fact which could maybe be relevant in the future is the invasion of the Slovia by the Cener Druids. In short I'm very curious in what kind of direction the story will go in the final books ^
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Post by moonblade on Aug 2, 2019 23:43:58 GMT
after you defeat the Tzomah and before it is taken into the shadow gate something or someone attracts its presence and we hear a thin and fragile human laugh. I have the feeling that this human is Vonotar somehow survived and now returned in the Magnamund (of course, I also might be utterly wrong ;D). I think it’s totally reasonable that he might have survived. He managed to survive his initial trip through the Shadow Gate, and he managed to survive within the Daziarn itself, which is a hostile place—and he was a relatively weak wizard! Clearly he has the internal fortitude to make it. And there’s also the description of Lone Wolf’s victory over him—it’s described as happen right on the edge of the Shadow agate itself. It’s not too difficult to imagine that Vonotar might have been able to escape into the ethereal plane and escape Naar’s wrath once more, yet find himself unable to get back with no actual body and have little to do but consider his sins for a long, long time. The next Lone Wolf enters a Shadow Gate, who’s to say that Vonotar’s spirit doesn’t immediately seek him out, the way that Paido, Sebb Jared and Lord Adamas did in Book 20? I wondered for a while if the prophecy could possibly be referring to Shasarak, but I genuinely don’t think it could be him. The main reason being that Shasarak was established as one of the Shianti themselves, which would preclude him being a Sommlending. (Also, doesn’t Grey Star think of the Shianti as his masters/elders? I don’t really recall him ever claiming equity with them regardless of his clear alignment. But that could be my bad memory.)
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Post by Wild Horse on Aug 8, 2019 6:06:54 GMT
From the prophecy, it seems likely that the wizard mentioned is Vonotar. Who else betrayed Sommerlund in such a manner that the entire country came close to collapse?
There might have been other Brotherhood wizards who were criminals but i doubt their crimes are on Vonotar's level.
And he might not have been such a weak wizard, since he managed to learn both the Left and Right Handed paths of magic.
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