simkn
Kai Lord
Posts: 111
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Post by simkn on May 5, 2020 1:44:21 GMT
When and how was the decision made to start you with 5 Disciplines in book 21, instead of 4?
I have the original book 21, and it clearly says you start with 4. But the collector's edition and PA edition say you start with 5.
I understand it makes some sense, considering then you will have learned all 16 to become a Supreme Master instead of just needing 15 of 16, as it was originally written.
Was this change OK'ed by Joe Dever? Was it a mistake on his part in the original printing of the NO series? Was the change something that was decided by PA because of the discrepancy just mentioned about only needing 15 of the 16 to reach the maximum rank? Some combination?
I'm curious what the story is behind it.
(Apologies if this has been discussed before. I did my due diligence and looked through a large number threads on the forum but wasn't able to find one on this exact topic.)
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Post by Black Cat on May 5, 2020 3:19:30 GMT
I think that it was a mistake since the beginning. In the GM series, you start book 13 with 4 Disciplines and you end up a Supreme Master (all 12 Disciplines mastered) only after completing book 20 (so, you never actually play a book as a Supreme Master...). If you keep the same reasoning with the NO series, starting with book 21 and only 4 Disciplines (which is starting exactly at the same level than Lone Wolf in book 13), you can get your 16th Discipline (and normally becoming a Supreme Master) only after completing book 32. But I think Joe always intended for us to play book 32 as a Supreme Master (based on the events of books 29 and 30) and when he discovered that starting the NO series with only 4 Disciplines would not give us Supreme Master status at the start of book 32 (and probably because at least a first version of book 21 had already been published), instead of modifying the number of Disciplines you start with in subsequent books (which would had given us a puzzle of people having 4 starting Disciplines in book 21 and some having 5, or people reading book 22 as their first book of the NO series but having the exact same number of Disciplines than those who had also played book 21 with only 4 Disciplines), he just tweaked the ranks and allowed the player to reach Supreme Master status with only 15 Disciplines. This way, it allowed the player to play book 32 as a Supreme Master even if he started the series with only 4 Disciplines. I did some threadnomancy: in a discussion I've started in 2004 (!), on the very first page, PA administrator Outspaced questionned why the NO GM reached the Supreme Master status with only 15 Disciplines ( link). The question must had been forwarded to Joe who probably allowed the correction in the PA's edition of the books, a correction that was probably brought in the new Collector's Edition. |
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simkn
Kai Lord
Posts: 111
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Post by simkn on May 5, 2020 15:29:34 GMT
Awesome, thank you for the informative response! And your threadnomancy is clearly better than mine...  |
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simkn
Kai Lord
Posts: 111
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Post by simkn on May 10, 2020 16:12:46 GMT
Can anyone confirm or deny whether Joe Dever gave his thumbs up to changing the starting NO disciplines from 4 to 5?
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Post by Black Cat on May 10, 2020 19:27:55 GMT
Can anyone confirm or deny whether Joe Dever gave his thumbs up to changing the starting NO disciplines from 4 to 5? I have a physical copy of book 29, the last book written by JD, and it clearly states that if it is your first NO adventure, you start with five Disciplines. |
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Post by Lucy Van Pelt on May 12, 2020 18:21:39 GMT
Can anyone confirm or deny whether Joe Dever gave his thumbs up to changing the starting NO disciplines from 4 to 5? I have a physical copy of book 29, the last book written by JD, and it clearly states that if it is your first NO adventure, you start with five Disciplines. Actually, Joe intended 3 extra disciplines, not 4. He should have kept Astrology, Herbmastery, Elementalism. Bardsmanship is redundant! |
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Post by Oiseau on May 12, 2020 19:02:27 GMT
Plenty of the new ones are redundant. Herbmastery is a separate Discipline for what Healing/Curing used to do (recognize herbs and potions). Elementalism is not only ridiculous (the Kai control the weather, like really?), it's just another form of magic — there's already Kai-Alchemy and Magi-Magic for that (indeed, one of these two, pick one, is already redundant). Astrology is completely useless game-wise, it's just a thing where you look at the stars and predict "great danger lies ahead" (like you couldn't have guessed!). Bardsmanship is also next to useless, but of the New 4, it had the most potential to be interesting. Then there's Intuition, which seems to never activate when real danger looms (the gladiator's fountain), and to a lesser degree, Pathsmanship, which never gives any hints when confronted by left-right choices. There's a moment in Bk 29 where a character asks you outright if your Kai Disciplines can help them choose a path, and the book just goes, "Do you want to choose south, north or east?" without even mentioning Tracking or Exploration, both of which a Grand Master would possess. All in all, plenty of Higher Disciplines are not very useful. You basically have to pick the ones that grant explicit bonuses, and then the defensive ones (i.e. Nexus, Psy-Screen, Invisibilty), and the rest can rot.
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gibe
Kai Lord
Posts: 15
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Post by gibe on Oct 19, 2021 6:15:14 GMT
That's a question which is on my mind since I started the New order serie a couple of years ago.
And as I've just ordered a copy of book 30 and 31 (yeepee!), I'm starting to prepare my character for the next adventure. I have some time to wait as I live in China, it will probably take a month or so before they are delivered.
Anyway, did Vincent or Ben confirmed that it is the correct number of starting disciplines? If so that would a be change compared to other series (Kai, Magnakai, Grand Master) where even in the last book you're lacking at least one discipline.
Won't having all disciplines in book 32, on top of +11 combat and +22 endurance from the first book, make the adventure too easy?
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Post by zorkraan on Oct 19, 2021 8:01:01 GMT
Anyway, did Vincent or Ben confirmed that it is the correct number of starting disciplines? If so that would a be change compared to other series (Kai, Magnakai, Grand Master) where even in the last book you're lacking at least one discipline. I [Vincent] confirm! This was changed by Joe Dever himself with the Collector Edition of book 21 (published by Mantikore Verlag) and LW29, in accordance with his plans for the last book of the saga. Won't having all disciplines in book 32, on top of +11 combat and +22 endurance from the first book, make the adventure too easy? I can't spoil anything, but it might be associated with new... aspects of the gameplay ;-). |
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Post by jmisno1 on Oct 19, 2021 11:17:14 GMT
Anyway, did Vincent or Ben confirmed that it is the correct number of starting disciplines? If so that would a be change compared to other series (Kai, Magnakai, Grand Master) where even in the last book you're lacking at least one discipline. I [Vincent] confirm! This was changed by Joe Dever himself with the Collector Edition of book 21 (published by Mantikore Verlag) and LW29, in accordance with his plans for the last book of the saga. Won't having all disciplines in book 32, on top of +11 combat and +22 endurance from the first book, make the adventure too easy? I can't spoil anything, but it might be associated with new... aspects of the gameplay ;-). I was thinking that Ben and Vincent would add put in some new aspects to the gameplay that would allow Book 32 to challenge A player whose character has beat The 1st 11 New Order Books, that they would also put in some new aspects that would ensure that someone that starts with Book 32 would have a chance of winning and even though you say you can't spoil anything in my opinion the answer you gave has confirmed my suspicions |
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Post by wisestrider on Oct 19, 2021 12:25:54 GMT
Plenty of the new ones are redundant. Herbmastery is a separate Discipline for what Healing/Curing used to do (recognize herbs and potions). Elementalism is not only ridiculous (the Kai control the weather, like really?), it's just another form of magic — there's already Kai-Alchemy and Magi-Magic for that (indeed, one of these two, pick one, is already redundant). Astrology is completely useless game-wise, it's just a thing where you look at the stars and predict "great danger lies ahead" (like you couldn't have guessed!). Bardsmanship is also next to useless, but of the New 4, it had the most potential to be interesting. Then there's Intuition, which seems to never activate when real danger looms (the gladiator's fountain), and to a lesser degree, Pathsmanship, which never gives any hints when confronted by left-right choices. There's a moment in Bk 29 where a character asks you outright if your Kai Disciplines can help them choose a path, and the book just goes, "Do you want to choose south, north or east?" without even mentioning Tracking or Exploration, both of which a Grand Master would possess. All in all, plenty of Higher Disciplines are not very useful. You basically have to pick the ones that grant explicit bonuses, and then the defensive ones (i.e. Nexus, Psy-Screen, Invisibilty), and the rest can rot. I know this is an older post but I'm pretty sure each new discipline was introduced as a way of splitting up some of the more useful discipline's (if you compare to how abilities worked in the GM series) and also expanding on sub abilities that existed in the Magnakai series but weren't expanded on in the GM series. Elementalism is an offshoot of Grand Nexus (manipulate elements / change structure of minerals and metals). Herbmastery is an offshoot of Deliverance (identify useful plants / herbs / potions). Bardmanship is an offshoot of Kai Surge (subdue or confuse hostile creatures / destroy or disrupt inanimate objects). Astrology is an offshoot of Telegnosis (read psychic residue on objects / fortune-teller). If you compare the Advanced Magnakai versions of the four GM disciplines (Nexus, Curing, Psi Surge and Divination) together with the 8 "advanced discipline" paths set out in the NO series it's a bit clearer what's going on. The other 6 disciplines are more straightforward in the way the "advanced disciplines" develop in the GM series. |
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gibe
Kai Lord
Posts: 15
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Post by gibe on Oct 20, 2021 2:14:21 GMT
Anyway, did Vincent or Ben confirmed that it is the correct number of starting disciplines? If so that would a be change compared to other series (Kai, Magnakai, Grand Master) where even in the last book you're lacking at least one discipline. I [Vincent] confirm! This was changed by Joe Dever himself with the Collector Edition of book 21 (published by Mantikore Verlag) and LW29, in accordance with his plans for the last book of the saga. Won't having all disciplines in book 32, on top of +11 combat and +22 endurance from the first book, make the adventure too easy? I can't spoil anything, but it might be associated with new... aspects of the gameplay ;-). Thanks zorkraan for your reply. I'll check which new discipline I'll pick for book 30  .
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