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Post by Sunwolf on May 3, 2004 23:06:37 GMT
Hey everyone,
I remember reading in the "Story So far..." at the beginning of the books that the Sommerlunding were fro the Northern void, and were sent to Magnamund by the god Kai. Where is the northern void? Are the Sommerlunding normal humans?
Anyone else see a similarity to the Numenoeans from middle earth? In lord of the rings they were described as the "kings of man". That they were exceptionally great mean who lived much longer than a normal human.
Think Joe was influence by this? Think the Sommerlunding are similar looking? Similar style?
JON
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Post by Ghost Bear on May 4, 2004 0:11:44 GMT
From the Magnamund Companion
Ishir and Kai, woefully ill-prepared for the speed with which Naar's champions were conquering Magnamund, sent forth a race of men called Sommlending and armed them with wisdom and a great power called the Sommerswerd: the sword of the sun. Their defiant bravery is all that now stands in the path of Darklord domination.
So other than the Sommlending being armed with wisdom, I see no similarity between them and the Numenoreans. At least, no more similarity than half a dozen other peoples in different fantasy settings, and several more from myths and legends centuries older than Lord of the Rings.
Having said that, being a fantasy fan, Dever might well have been influenced by Lord of the Rings, as most fans and writers of the genre seem to be.
-GB
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Post by Sarra on May 4, 2004 0:57:42 GMT
Just a note...it is technically Sommlending. Not Sommerlunding.
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Post by outspaced on May 4, 2004 9:12:12 GMT
Having said that, being a fantasy fan, Dever might well have been influenced by Lord of the Rings, as most fans and writers of the genre seem to be. Just to clarify, The Northern Void and The Southern Void are vast expanses of ocean dotted with islands. The following is taken from Club Newsletter New Year's Special 1987: To the east and west of the two great continents of Northern and Southern Magnamund are huge expanses of sea. In the northern hemisphere this sea is called ‘The Northern Void’; in the southern hemisphere it is called ‘The Southern Void’. There are thousands of uncharted islands, which collectively are called the ‘Kayunis’—a Vassagonian word which means ‘the stones of the void’. The Sommlending people were originally from an archipelago in The Northern Void. The God Kai compelled them to leave their islands and voyage to The Lastlands, and it was during this great voyage that he imbued many of the warriors with special powers. These warriors were destined to become the Kai Lords of Sommerlund.There are therefore definite similarities between the Numenoreans and the Sommlending, but also major differences. Both races were great seafarers living on an island in the sea. But whereas the Sommlending were faithful to Kai, and moved the the mainland at his behest, the Numenoreans were unfaithful to Iluvatar. One could therefore argue that the migration of the Sommlending is actually closer to the Biblical account of Moses and the Israelites than the Numenoreans who ultimately led an attack on the undying lands, leading to the destruction of Numenor. Of course there are going to be similarities between Lone Wolf and Tokien's work. Tolkien re-wrote the book on modern fantasy, changing it from stories of muscled barbarians and busty wenches to more insightful, intelligent, and powerful stories of personal bravery, self-sacrificing love, loss, honour and duty. Not that I have anything against putting my brain in neutral and reading a good hack-'n'-slash Conan-esque story! But there's no real depth to them. Dever has cited his influences as Moorc0ck and Tolkien (polar opposites in terms of fantasy), so there will be references--both subtle and blatant--to the works of those authors. The sword Helshezag, for example, is 'a subtle tribute to Moorc0ck's Stormbringer' according to Dever in Newsletter 27.
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Post by The Wytch-King on May 4, 2004 9:19:08 GMT
I agree with Ghost Bear (and Ronan, of course . And as o the physical appearance, there don't seem to be any more similarities than between any other human peoples. The Númenórians were described as a tall, stern people, with grey eyes and dark hair. The Sommerlending have more of a nordic/skandinavian touch, I think; more of a fair-haired people with rather blue than grey eyes. Maybe they are tall as well, but I don't remember that being especially noted anywhere. And they definitely have no longer life spans than other humans (certain individuals excepted ... ). The Wytch-King edit: And, as I see, with outspaced as well ... I should type faster, eh?
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Hal
Kai Lord
Posts: 44
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Post by Hal on May 4, 2004 9:24:16 GMT
Except that the bearers slightly differ. Kraagenskul does not unvoluntarily kill his friends. He has NO friends. Only victims. ;D
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Post by Ghost Bear on May 4, 2004 9:44:32 GMT
There is more information in the MC, but I'm not sure that I should be cut&pasting large chunks of it, since it's not been released by Project Aon yet. Any staff member want to comment on that? Oh, and speaking of Tolkien - he wasn't the first to do stories on duty, honour, self-sacrifice, etc etc. What he did do was pull different elements from different authors together into a decent story. At the risk of sounding 'contrary for the hell of it', I don't think that Lord of the Rings is the best thing since sliced bread. To be honest, I consider the first 12 Lone Wolf books to be a better saga. More varied, more characterful, and more interestingly told. There, I said it. Flame away. -GB
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Post by Archdruid on May 4, 2004 10:15:21 GMT
I agree; I thought I was the only one that felt this way. I think, although the influence LotR had was tremendous, the books themselves are overrated. Ack! The original Robert E. Howard Conan stories (the ones from the 20s and 30s -- before LotR!) are fantastic; they sowed the seeds for the Dark Fantasy genre and brought fantasy away from the High Fantasy of Lord Dunsany. The original Conan stories are very heavy on irony, but you have to look for it. The same goes for the works of Clark Ashton Smith, who wrote at the same time. Most of his works are now public domain, so you can read them at eldritchdark.com/ . Moorc0ck was, I believe, heavily influenced by Howard. They're not for everybody, but I also enjoy the Dying Earth stories by Jack Vance (who was influenced by Smith); his writing style has a sort of underlying tension which is difficult to describe. I wish people would rediscover Vance's and Smith's works; I think they're both more inventive than Tolkien. I know the D&D Expert Set used to have a Smith-influenced module called Castle Amber, but other than that his works languish in obscurity. And then there's the more gothic-influenced writers like H.P. Lovecraft, but apparently Arkham House finally managed to force their copyright back onto his stories so they're not online anymore. And then there's Lone Wolf, who got me into fantasy to begin with . . .
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Post by outspaced on May 4, 2004 10:25:26 GMT
Oh, and speaking of Tolkien - he wasn't the first to do stories on duty, honour, self-sacrifice, etc etc. Oh, good grief, of course he wasn't! I wasn't trying to say that at all! No, that wasn't my intention. After all, he was drawing inspiration from ancient tales like Beowulf and other Scandanavian tales centuries old. My point was that he did re-write modern fantasy by putting it back on the map as a valid literary setting, that it was OK for grown men to be telling--and reading!--what amounts to fairy tales. Pre-Tolkien, most fantasists were writing about magic swords and busty amazons wearing chainmail bikinis. There's was a deluge of such stories in the Amazing Stories and other pulp fiction magazines from the 30s and 40s. And while such notions as duty, honour, etc. are no doubt mentioned, there seems to rarely be any real sacrifice or genuine feeling evoked by those stories, and they lack any real character depth. I thought I was being contrary by saying I didn't like Alyss and Qinefer, but apparently I'm not! Be free, Kai Brother, be free to have and speak thine opinions!
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Post by Archdruid on May 4, 2004 10:32:38 GMT
So Tolkien just took out the amazons, eh? ;D
I agree that most of the pulp stories were garbage, but there are the ones that stand up above the rest (esp. the Weird Tales triumvirate -- Lovecraft, Howard, and Smith) that still have an impact, if a lesser one, on fantasy today. And Howard died young; there's no telling what his fiction would have become later.
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Post by Ghost Bear on May 4, 2004 11:20:15 GMT
I thought I was being contrary by saying I didn't like Alyss and Qinefer, but apparently I'm not! Be free, Kai Brother, be free to have and speak thine opinions! Hehe, I expected a lynching when I said that too. Sorry if I came on a little strong with the bit you quoted. It wasn't my intention to accuse you of being stupid, or unread, or whatever.
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Post by AlbinoChocobo on May 4, 2004 12:08:34 GMT
BURN THE INFIDEL !!!!! (but do take off his nice boots first). LotR comments are flamebait. I'm still more or less into Lone Wolf, despite its (numerous?) flaws partly because of the nostalgia value; I discovered gamebooks as a pre-teen. But LotR !! My mother read it to me when I was 4 ! How do you expect me to be unbiased ? Actually, I read them at 15-16, and probably won't read it again (not alone anyway). But it still is a milestone in the genre. Tolkien is just a trend, chainmail bikini will endure ;D Not to forget the Jean-Paul-Gaultier-iron-bustier walkyrie thing. And the jungle-jane leopard bikini <wipes drool> I thought 'fairy tales' and occultism were quite the rage in the late 19th century. Grown men could read and discuss fairy tales under a literary cover well into the 20th (work such as Yeat's). Tolkien did do away with the excuse of tradition, and tried to create his own classic epic. Well, we'll know it's a classic when there's a disney animation . His public success probably made the whole genre publishable (in non-pulp form), but reading Howard, Lieber or Moorc0ck was still regarded as a weird teenage thing up to the 90's. And try to explain Lone Wolf outside the circle of connoisseurs. Like, try your wife/girlfriend/s.o. Mine gets that patient 'listening to you' look, that kind of thing is the reason she thinks I'm weird. Heck, I'm as normal as most people should be. But it will be okay when my army of mutants take ov^H^H^H^H Hey, the Moor[thingy] thingy also works with Philip K. [thingy] ! Um, I'll go fetch my coat.
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Post by Archdruid on May 4, 2004 12:24:42 GMT
It still is sort of seen as sort of a weird teenage thing; I mean, even with Tolkien, most people go see the movie. It's the teenagers for the most part who sit down and actually read the books, in my experience.
And yes, I know all about that look.
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Post by Sunwolf on May 4, 2004 19:44:16 GMT
I'm replying as one who gets that look as well from his gf. I explain LW to her and shes like..uh huh..uh huh..arghhhhh! Anyway..
Speaking of Conan, I recently bought the vol. 1 anthology of his stories: The comming of Conan The Cimmerian. While its a wonderful colleciton of howards stories, I agree that there are some things lacking. Each of the stories gets into an interesting setup but doens't pay off. It just ends. If they'd been expanded into full novels they'd be much better.
I've read Tolkein as well. And i'd have to say that Tolkein isn't the best writer i've ever seen, (that being that he wasn't a professional writer according to him) But i'd have to profess that I fell in love with his world. He was able to create Middle Earth so vividly that i could picture it as real in my mind. Every tiny little corner.
Aside from that. Fantasy basically is still a niche thing. Even though the lord of the rings movies came out. Try and get the average person to read the books or any fantasy books. Good luck!
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Post by Relenoir on May 5, 2004 23:30:31 GMT
Please tell me you mean the gamebooks, not the novels. I'm not going to go looking for my sword over any of the comments made regarding LotR. Honestly, I have to agree with a lot of it. I'm a big fan of the series, but every time I get to that whole Tom Bombadil section, I wonder why I'm still reading it. The orc chase drags, as well as a lot of the things going on in Minas Tirith and Fangorn Forest. Still, it's about forty years older than Lone Wolf and does deserve a good deal of respect for the number of copies it's sold alone: over 50 million before the movies came out. Am I the only person who has been able to convert my wife to a gamer? She doesn't do the books, because every time she tries she gets killed, but she really likes the world and RPG. To Outspaced: Wow, very impressive post. I never knew a lot of that stuff, and the comparisons were very enlightening. *prostrates* We're not worthy! We're not worthy!
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