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Post by Zipp on Jan 23, 2006 3:36:02 GMT
I have to admit again, so that you can all see my glaringly fickle nature, that I wasn't that fond of Cadak. His plans usually revolved around "Hah! I'll send a tough monster at Lone Wolf and not plan for anything else!" I was always disappointed by the way he seems to look shocked and surprised when you kill his monster, and resorts to yelling "Curses!" as his fallback plan. Seriously. A real evil overlord would have intended right from the start for LW to kill his monster, only to reveal that the monster was really LW's mother or something. But I can't remember a single villain in the gamebooks that was that devious, except Shamath (and you didn't like that book). Well, actually, Gnaag is pretty devious at times.
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Post by Dusk Fox on Jan 23, 2006 19:14:06 GMT
Well, it's tough to be devious when Lone Wolf can read your mind. Kai Lords are pretty tough to trick.
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Post by jardek on Jan 24, 2006 2:46:20 GMT
Most devious enemy: Ulnar.
The guy obviously wants Lone Wolf dead, or he wouldn't send him off on so many impossible quests - and he's so devious you NEVER find out he's a bad guy.
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Post by The Tagazin Poodle on Jan 25, 2006 17:06:48 GMT
"Lone Wolf, my old friend! Er, funny thing, I kinda left my wallet in the ruins of Helgedad--could you go grab it real quick? I'm expecting the pizza dude in about twenty minutes."
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Post by wildcat on Jan 26, 2006 1:02:38 GMT
The first 6 books were my favorites with 4 and 5 being the best. The Magnakai series 7-12 was merely okay, and I didn't like the Grandmaster series at all. I haven't had the chance to read the new order series, if that ever gets online.
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Post by Zipp on Jan 26, 2006 23:46:19 GMT
The first 6 books were my favorites with 4 and 5 being the best. The Magnakai series 7-12 was merely okay, and I didn't like the Grandmaster series at all. I haven't had the chance to read the new order series, if that ever gets online. Any reasons as to why you didn't like the GM series, and only sort've liked the Magnakai? You've got me curious.
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Post by wildcat on Jan 28, 2006 0:42:38 GMT
Well I'll try to be as brief as possible. Though this is going to be a long one.
I think my problems with the Magnakai series started with Cauldron of Fear. I really missed the old art, the writing quality also seemed to take a downturn after book 6, and I didn't like the surprise brick wall of Zakhan Kimah. I like trying to survive series adventure books and having to go the "right" way with the "right" gear a second time seemed like a gyp. As far as I'm concerned the Darklords won, since anyone who plays fair with no warnings and uses a random dice roll, including CS stat rolls, will die on this encounter the first run through. To make matters worse this happens after the Sommerswerd was stolen and you earn the right to keep it in book 7. The combat spread seemed too low then way too high, and I got the feeling that Dever was out to get those who seemed to have it too easy with his Sommerswerd creation. All this managed to do was require people to bring their saved potions, silver helms, shields, multiple armor and other treasures, min-max monty haul style for subsequent runs.
Prisoners of Time was simply badly written in many ways and came at a bad time in the series. The early parts were really bogged down too. I like how Gnaag managed to keep all three remaining lorestones together to be recovered, instead of seperated. As far as Vonotar is concerned why wasn't he executed outright after trial, rather than tossed into some unknown portal, only to be slain in cold blood later anyways. He seemed like a throwaway foe in this book. Sure earlier books had plotholes, such as the whole Seal of Hammerdal set up, but they were even more glaring in the Magnakai series.
Now for the Grandmaster series there were several problems for me. Mainly I think this series would have fit Greystar better. What with all the dimension and planet-jumping. They had the feeling of adventure on alien worlds that had little to do with the whole Magnamund campaign, in which details seemed to be lost. Lonewolf seems to also be facing an identity crisis now that he is a Kai-Vakeros-Toran guildmage all with a +10 vorpal reaver. The combat escalation also seemed strange on the other side, suddenly the average Drakkar, or insert other foe, was a tougher fight than a Darklord.
The series started to become really cliched and seemed to have progressed for too long, how many times must Magnamund be saved, it's a wonder that it even lasted long enough for Lonewolf to be born to save it to begin with. Joe even ripped off his own idea from the Greystar series and had an evil twin on the lose again. Then you run from a fight with the Kekataag, only to have to cross the entire plain of darkness to get back to the same fight. Talk about doing things the hard way. The whole series had the feeling of been there, done that, and was very linear. Let me also say that I am not a fan of the Lone Wolf novel series, and didn't appreciate their tie-ins with the gamebook series.
Whew that's a lot of criticism, I do think Joe's early work for the first six Lonewolf books, and the whole Greystar series and Magnamund Companion are among some of the best gamebooks around, and I like me my gamebook series. Plus as bad as some of the books got, they never sunk to the level of some of the Fighting Fantasy books. Which also took a turn for the worse after earlier releases.
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Post by HuntingWolf on Feb 9, 2006 1:23:58 GMT
Maybe it's me, but I actually like Banedon, Qinefer, Alyss, etc. Dunno why.
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Post by MikeH on Feb 9, 2006 8:07:29 GMT
>>I do think Joe's early work for the first six Lonewolf books, and the whole Greystar series and Magnamund Companion are among some of the best gamebooks around, and I like me my gamebook series. Plus as bad as some of the books got, they never sunk to the level of some of the Fighting Fantasy books. Which also took a turn for the worse after earlier releases. <<
Much though I love the FF series I couldn't agree more with this. Some of the *earlier* FF books, never mind the later ones, were pretty dire. To be honest, I never really cared for most of Steve Jackson's books. Demian Katz makes the point on his website that Steve's strength is in game design rather than storytelling, and I think that's pretty fair. House of Hell is still pretty damn creepy though.
The richness of the LW world is what has made the series the success it is, and is the abiding reason we're all still discussing it today. Grey Star never quite worked for me though; GStW is incredibly tedious to my mind, and Ian Page has a lot to learn about pacing a good story.
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Post by outspaced on Feb 9, 2006 10:48:08 GMT
MikeH: Yeah, I've never understood why people consider The Warlock of Firetop Mountain a "classic". It's poorly written, not well paced, and the scond half--the Maze of Zagor--is deliberately written to be as tedious as possible. It's a landmark in the genre as the first 'choose-you-own-adventure' to utilise role-playing attributes, but as a gamebook it's not that great. Some of the better FF writers came along later on, such as Peter Darvill-Evans ( Beneath Nightmare Castle, Portal of Evil, Spectral Stalkers), Luke Sharp ( Chasms of Malice, Daggers of Darkness), Keith Martin ( Stealer of Souls, Vault of the Vampire), and others. I'm not mad keen on many of Ian Livingstone's books (exactly how is Deathtrap Dungeon as great as everyone seems to say it is??), though I do rather like Jackson's Creature of Havoc and the Sorcery series. Also, I think Lone Wolf generally got better as it went along. Some of the later books in the Grand Master series eclipse the writing and plots of the earlier Magnakai books, to my mind, since I've never been all that enamoured with either Castle Death (which seems to have been written after an all-night session of watching Beastmaster, Deathstalker, and The Sword and the Sorcerer back-to-back) or The Jungle of Horrors. While I can appreciate the fear of change, it's necessary, and it often does improve things, so I'm never going to be one who harks back to the 'good old days', or who insists the earlier ones were best. Meh, I never intended to write all that! >_<
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Post by holmestoo on Feb 9, 2006 15:46:37 GMT
Hm. I've only read through the Grandmaster series once ( I tend to get killed a lot in Book 13. That's a rough book), so I'm most familiar with the Kai and Magnakai series. My least favorite book is, hands down, "Caverns of Kalte". I'm not exactly sure why. That one just always strikes me as a chore. I'd be inclined to 'skip it' and go straight to Book 4, but there is at least one Special Item worth acquiring in Book 3. I love Book 1, as it's one of the most 'open sided' books, at least in terms of how one gets from page 1 to page 350. It's possible to play that book and not quite do exactly the same things twice. Lots of room for 'exploration'. Later books tend to become more 'linear', which is not really a big deal. Joe did provide significant opportunities for diversity in those as well ( for example, do you get captured or not in Book 5). Book 11 is just too ... 'odd' for me. It's a fun book in it's own right, but what with the Chaos Master (who tends to kick yer butt if you have the Sommerswerd) and the Villians of Sommerlund (who tend to kick yer butt if you don't. ;D ), it's relative difficulty doesn't give me much reason to want to pursue it, especially since I start over at Book 1 when LW gorks. ;D If I can hold on to the Super Potion of Alether until Book 11 this time, I might give it a go, tho. It's always useful to earn the Archmaster power of Deliverance prior to going into Book 12, at the very least. My second favorite book is Book 6. I think this one is Joe Dever's finest book when it comes to description. Book 5 is perhaps the second most descriptive.
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Post by MikeH on Feb 10, 2006 8:26:56 GMT
The one LW book I had very strong feelings of disappointment with (and it's been a couple of years since I last read it, so on reflection I may be doing it a disservice) was Dawn of the Dragons. I loved the idea of having a book set largely in or around the Kai Monastery, giving the chance not only to explore it and see it in action, but to take charge of it. When I found that it only encompassed a relatively small part of the latter part of the book I was rather disappointed.
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Post by HuntingWolf on Feb 10, 2006 17:37:13 GMT
I think Joe needs to write a pre-book, before #1, where Landar comes to the Kai Monastary, adopts the name Silent Wolf, etc....
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Post by Dusk Fox on Feb 11, 2006 1:52:53 GMT
I think Joe needs to write a pre-book, before #1, where Landar comes to the Kai Monastary, adopts the name Silent Wolf, etc.... I can see how this would be interesting, but at the same time, would it be a book where you play through with no Disciplines, and just sort of... train?
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Post by wildcat on Feb 11, 2006 2:08:10 GMT
House of Hell is still pretty damn creepy though. That one's probably my favorite FF book. I really like how you start off with no weapons, although I think he could have given you a bit more fear points to work with.
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