If you could add/modify rules, what would you do?

[simkn]

Since we seem to be discussing rules-related questions in this forum, it seemed an appropriate place to ask this...

If you could change or add to the LW rules, what would you change and what would you add? Have you invented your own rules that you've applied along the way? If so, what were they? And, have you longed for any other rules, even if they're not workable in the current ruleset?

Wielding two weapons at once seems to be a popular choice. I've also seen a post about "armor wear and tear" and the ability to repair it. And of course I think we'd have liked clarifications on some rules (like Healing during numbered sections), but would you have just done it differently from the outset? If so, how?

Of course, Joe Dever left out a lot of complexity on purpose... he wanted to keep the game rules simple and fun, yet provide for plenty of interactivity. I'm for one glad for this since, at age 10 when I first picked up a LW book, if it'd been too complex I might not've ever learned to play! However, it's still fun to talk about added complexity and so forth, and even to implement it in our own reading just to get yet another variation on LW when we read Shadow on the Sand for the umpteenth time.

[simkn]

One that comes to mind for me are more options for combat-related results. The most common example of this is "If you defeat the enemy in 4 rounds or less, turn to...", which can vary the outcome of the battle. And that's neat, but...

Sometimes I wanted to see more possibilities. For example, if you roll a 0 and you get a "K" instant kill in the first round of combat, I'd've loved to have an option "If you kill this enemy in one round, turn to ", at which point you turn to a section that says something along the lines of "The foolish Drakkar that dared stand in your way is quickly dispatched with one swipe of your weapon as you plow through their ranks, effortlessly slaying them left and right..." etc. An instant kill followed by a section saying "After a long and difficult battle, you have killed the Drakkar..." just seemed incongruent.

Another thing I'd've enjoyed is varying what happens based on what weapon you're carrying. Sometimes it says "You've impaled your enemy" but if you're carrying a blunt weapon like a warhammer or a quarterstaff, it seems less likely. Or prying something open with a warhammer? Or trying to cut a rope with a quarterstaff?

Also, it has been mentioned in this forum before, that perhaps two-handed weapons should be dealt with differently than one-handed... for example, not being able to wield a shield and a two-handed weapon simultaneously.

These are just a few thoughts...

[Thomas Wolmer]

Adding different outcomes and such things would probabbly have made the books swell to unpublishable dimensions, so it's easy to see why they were not an option. However, there's places a few where you need an edged, or pointy, or "swingable" weapon to do a certain thing.

However, rules that are only hinted at should definitely have been put explicitly. Two-handed weapons and shield is one such case, another is the fact that Healing (etc.) and various healing drugs only seems to heal combat wounds, not other types of EP losses. I have taken to divide my EP losses into "violent" and "other", and only let the "other" heal from rest, picking up a Lorestone, and other general "you feel much better" EP recoveries.

I'd also have have redone the "weapon-like Special Items do not count as Weapons" rule. A sword is a sword! It's also very annoying to have a max 12 Special Items and then have several slots be taken up by Weapons, whereas your two Weapon slots are completely unused since you don't need them...

[simkn]

I agree that the addition of a lot of extra branches would make the books overly complex and require too many pages and too much page turning. But in an electronic world with online books like at Project Aon, who cares, right? Plus, it's always fun to play "what if?"

Also, in your rules, feel free to explain in detail how you'd implement them. For example, here's a link to something posted by Zipp that I liked, about armor damage: LINK

[simkn]

I also liked the idea that Ronan used in his Saga of Lone Wolf books where you have experience points rewarded in seven different categories: Valor, Knowledge, Compassion, Humility, Honor, Determination, Prudence. When you get 10 in a category, you advance a level in that category which provides you with a particular bonus. And, each category corresponds to a different "warrior path" such as "Sage", "Paladin", "Principalin", "Ranger", etc. It actually requires less bookkeeping than you might think.

Another nice bonus of this method, besides providing for advancement, is the ability to reward players for different "styles" of playing. For example, the player that always rushes into combat gets awarded Valor points, whereas the player that prefers to avoid combat through diplomacy gets Prudence points.

Very nice idea Ronan!

Okay, I've posted some of my own ideas and borrowed a couple as well... I want to hear from everyone else!

[simkn]

Thomas said:

I'd also have have redone the "weapon-like Special Items do not count as Weapons" rule. A sword is a sword! It's also very annoying to have a max 12 Special Items and then have several slots be taken up by Weapons, whereas your two Weapon slots are completely unused since you don't need them...

I couldn't agree more. Those two weapon slots were useless for every book past 6, and virtually useless even before once you had the Sommerswerd.

But, here's a thought... introduction of different uses for different weapons could've changed that. For example, maybe you'd keep a dagger with you at all times for the job of prying things open or delicate cutting tasks, or if it's up your sleeve, for cutting your way out of bonding ropes. Or, maybe you'd keep an axe with you in a Kalte adventure for chopping through ice or a woodlands adventure for cutting through a tree that's fallen across the road, blocking the passage of your wagons, etc. I made my weapon choices in LW books based on such thoughts, just in case, but such preparedness was never rewarded.

[Zipp]

I've studied game design as a hobbie and occasional job for a while now, and I do have to say that Dever's books struck me as one of the best examples of succinct and fun gameplay styles out there.

Of course, when I look at rules for this game, the obvious changes would probably be combat related. I love the simplistic combat system, but it would be fun to figure out a way to add in combat variants and having your own moves, etc. or even implementing a Lost Worlds type fighting style (ask if you don't know, and care to know, what Lost Worlds is).

For me, though, I'd like to leave the combat system alone and instead focus on adding more kai disciplines. I'm a defenite supplements person when it comes to adding rules. I find that adding in supplements is always desirable over totally changing the structure of rules as is.

And thanks for the honorary mention concerning the armor class. I 'm glad someone else liked it.

[Sarra]

simkn said:

I also liked the idea that Ronan used in his Saga of Lone Wolf books where you have experience points rewarded in seven different categories: Valor, Knowledge, Compassion, Humility, Honor, Determination, Prudence. When you get 10 in a category, you advance a level in that category which provides you with a particular bonus. And, each category corresponds to a different "warrior path" such as "Sage", "Paladin", "Principalin", "Ranger", etc. It actually requires less bookkeeping than you might think.

Another nice bonus of this method, besides providing for advancement, is the ability to reward players for different "styles" of playing. For example, the player that always rushes into combat gets awarded Valor points, whereas the player that prefers to avoid combat through diplomacy gets Prudence points.

Very nice idea Ronan!

Okay, I've posted some of my own ideas and borrowed a couple as well... I want to hear from everyone else!

Thanks alot Simkn. This idea was actually taken from Ultima IX: Ascension.

[Frying Pan]

It would make a new rule that readers who make up their own ridiculous rules always die instantly. At the begining of each book, they automatically get the following option:

If you have read the rules of the game and are still insistent on making up your own crazy interpretations, turn to Section 351.

Section 351:

"You reach for your book of uselessly intricate rules in order to munchkin yourself out of the next sticky situation. Before you can extract your dice from your pocket, you are hit by the realisation that this is only a gamebook and you are just cheating against yourself. You are a sad, sad individual and die from the shame of realising that you are an incurable loser.

You life and quest end here."

[simkn]

Frying said:

It would make a new rule that readers who make up their own ridiculous rules always die instantly. At the begining of each book, they automatically get the following option:

If you have read the rules of the game and are still insistent on making up your own crazy interpretations, turn to Section 351.

Section 351:

"You reach for your book of uselessly intricate rules in order to munchkin yourself out of the next sticky situation. Before you can extract your dice from your pocket, you are hit by the realisation that this is only a gamebook and you are just cheating against yourself. You are a sad, sad individual and die from the shame of realising that you are an incurable loser.

You life and quest end here."

I know you're making a joke (and a funny one), but I just thought I'd mention that it's not about getting out of sticky situations. Well, sometimes it is, for some people. But for me, and for many, it's about roleplaying. It's about making the experience as realistic as possible. Kinda like Zipp's armor rules... those don't help you out of sticky situations... in fact, they make the game harder! But, that's okay, because it's more realistic... it's more realistic that armor gets worn out with time, that a devastating blow to an already well-worn old padded waistcoat could easily send it into retirement. Even as a 10 year old reading Shadow on the Sand for the first time I found myself thinking "Hey, I should be able to do X... it totally makes sense for me to be able to do that here, but unfortunately there's no allowance for it in the current rules." So, why not expand the rules to allow it? For some of us, part of the fun is in the technical rules of the game. Anyone that's played pen and paper D&D with all manner of optional combat rules knows what I'm talking about (the cone of flame has a radius of X and a range of Y, but there is a wall that is less than Z feet behind the target, so although the target is outside the radius X, it is within the splashback from the wall, blah blah blah...).

[Lazy KaiLord]

I'd modify damage and/or CS based on what weapon was being used, but the combat in Lone Wolf is so simple that it doesn't detract from the flow of the story. So...it's a kind of trade-off.

As for more options, you can tell by looking at the svg files of the different books that a lot of them tend to have extremely linear stretches of story--no options, just a "turn to" at the end. Then you read it, and get another "turn to".

At other times, it's a car/truck situation. Let me explain that. If you want to drive a car to town, turn to X. If you want to drive a truck to town, turn to Y.

X says turn to Z. Y says turn to Z. Your choice was ultimately meaningless.

And this is why I like Flight from the Dark so much. It is structured so that you can make it to Holmgard in just a few flips, or you can be flipping all night, wondering just how poor Lone Wolf got to travel all over Sommerlund before the capital was besieged!

And don't even get me started on scaled combat.... (if you have the Sommerswerd, enemy CS is 50; if you don't, enemy CS is 35 (just an example))

LKL

[simkn]

Ronan said:

Thanks alot Simkn. This idea was actually taken from Ultima IX: Ascension.

Yes, I can see how Ultima may have inspired it. The Ultima games have been doing that sort of character generation since way back... since Ultima 4 I think. In my opinion it's one of the neatest character generation methods ever, because (for those of you unfamiliar with it) you create a character solely by creating his personality (ie - no stats, no attributes, no professions) by answering a series of "What would you do in this situation?" type questions. No question has an easy answer, either, because it's a matter of preference... do you prefer to be valorous or honest, for example. For instance, "A man whom you know is very wealthy drops his purse. Do you follow the path of honesty and return the purse, or the path of compassion and donate his purse to the poor?" That sort of thing. Anyway, I always thought it was cool...

[Silent Viper]

Everyone wanting more indepth rules about useless things and more descriptions about combat: congratulations you missed the point!
Folks their are these things called "table top roleplaying games" like dungeons and dragons. Why not try one?
Simikin, don't you ever visualize these thing? like lonewolf sliding out of harms way when the enemy deals 0 damage, or decpating some random giak when you get "k"?
I think the rules as they are, are more or less perfect.
I would have an faq in the back expaining things like letting you carry 2 weapons and the sommersword, or being able to put your things in the kai monastry.
Actually one thing I would add is a luck/karma/fate/some other groovy name score, which would let you edit your die roll (so no being killed by the falling mass unless you were a dumbass and blew all your luck), and maybe enve let you scale down certain foes (*cough* choasmaster *cough).
On that subject I would say screw rolling your stats, your cs and en start a set value (no getting a cakewalk cause you have 19cs or being ****'d because you have 10)

[Oiseau]

Here would be my ideas for modified rules :

At the start of Book X, assume that Book X-1 and all previous adventures are part of Lone Wolf's established past. So in Book 3, the Sommerswerd would automatically be part of your starting equipment, and so on. However, this should only have been done for objects which Lone Wolf always finds (so the Silver Helm, for example, would remain a bonus item). This would have removed the need for all those "Do you possess the Sommerswerd?" paragraphs, all those "Have you ever been (someplace)?" paragraphs, and so on. The combats could also have been adjusted a lot better.

Obviously, clearing up a few nitpicks (the exact nature of the armor's Endurance bonus, the use of two-handed weapons, the points you can Heal and the points you can't Heal, etc) would have been good as well.

And finally, I would have made each book playable as a stand-alone adventure. As it stands, no Magnakaï book can be played on its own with a reasonable chance of winning, unless you fudge the rules with dual-weapon systems, loyalty bonuses, and the like. This is because all the official CS bonuses are to be found in Books 2 and 3, and Psi-Surge is actually detrimental, not beneficial, if used in a fight where Lone Wolf is already disadvantaged (mathematically, you'll die more often with Psi-Surge than without, because you automatically lose an extra 2 EP per round).

There are probably a few other thinks I would have liked to see, notably a way of inflicting damage upon an enemy outside of combat rules (say, with weapons like everybody else seems to have, when they zap Lone Wolf for 5 EP before the fight even begins).

The Oiseau

[Grayzie]

I used to hate being more than +11 on an enemy and still having to use the "+11 or higher" CRT, but eventually accepted this as a quirk of the game (even after the Extended CRT came out).

Having just finished book 20, one thing I realized is my battles per book had dropped quite significately since book 1. It seems like I spent much of the latter GM books answering "YES" to entries like "If you possess Telegnosis and have attained the rank of Sun Lord, turn to..." Upon which the reply would be something to the effect of 'You take no EP loss and still advance the plot.' Now, I'm not knocking the GM series, but my impression of it is this: Fight a random creature or two (more if you're unlucky or choose poorly), perhaps fight a champion, then fight the Boss of the book.

I don't know how this could be modified because I do accept the GM rules as they are. I just know there seems to be more urgency, more "death behind every door" in books 1-5 and that makes them more pleasurable (in that respect).