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Post by Zipp on Oct 24, 2004 3:40:56 GMT
QOUTE FROM SOMEONE (sorry, it was a while ago, can't remember): "Very clever. One of the reasons I got increasingly irritated with the Grand Master series was that Joe shot his load when he rubbed out the Darklords. After them, any enemies should have been toast in the face of the mighty Kai Lords. So what do we get? Enemies with even higher CS and EP! Where were these guys when the Darklords needed them? And yes, I'm sure plenty of people will point out the story behind Deathlord Ixiataaga, the Nyas scepter, the dragons and Wolf's Bane, but the evil God Naar isn't the brightest of sparks if he only unleashes these babies AFTER the mainstay of his army has been wiped out!"
You know, I've thought about this, and i do wonder what the reasons were. So far, the best I can come up with is that arrogance on the DLords parts stopped them from further recruition. Still, if Naar comanded it... or was Naar just too arrogant himself? I mean, the forces of good aren't that well equiped. Sure, we got Lone Wolf, but he is one guy. He can't be in two places at once. He dies quite often (we all know this from playing) and Kai (or us rerolling) bails him.
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Post by Shadow on Oct 24, 2004 23:26:36 GMT
I always thought that when Naar saw his precious Darklords destroyed by Lone Wolf he decided to create these newer stronger bad guys.
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Post by Zipp on Oct 25, 2004 1:46:47 GMT
No, many of them were already present. The Cener Druids, the corupt officials, the dragons...
Now don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the GM quests, in some ways I find them the most entertaining, certainly the most sophisticated, of the game books. But it is a curiousity.
Makes me wonder if there is ever going to be a finishing of those New Order quests? Or has Joe given up on finding a publisher?
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Post by Black Cat on Oct 25, 2004 4:49:44 GMT
Let's think about it book by book. I'm sure there's a plausible reason in every book to explain why the big bad guys weren't there when the Darklords need them.
Book 13: Ok, Naar asked the Cener druids, who worked with the Darklords, to create a plague to get his revenge for the lost of his creations. He never thought that his minions would be wiped out. Everything was going fine until the day where Lone Wolf came back from the Daziarn. Naar wasn't seeing the need to create a plague before that time because everything was well for him. As for Exterminus, he is a strong guy (CS:50, E:50) but his stats are lower than Gnaag (CS:50, E:70). Don't forget that you can escape that battle after 4 rounds, something that you can't do with Gnaag. Also, Exterminus is a part of a wall. I can't hardly imagine this thing running all over Magnamund, bringing its wall with him so that he can get some rest in it without going back to Morgaruith.
Book 14: Cadak tries to get his revenge of Lone Wolf. I'm sure Naar said to him: " Try to kill him if you want, but it won't be easy. I'm too busy to help you because I'm creating a death stick and some dragons right now". So, Naar doesn't have something to do with this plan of killing Lone Wolf, but I'm sure he would have been happy to see him die. Also, Cadak took over the throne of Kaag because he wasn't able to do it before. He was too weak if you compare him with the Darklords.
Book 15: Yeah, the Nyras Scepter was used by Darklord Dakushna, we all know that. Magnaarn is a Drakkar, he hasn't the power to survive the use of the Scepter like a Darklord can, although it makes him more powerful. So, of course, he wasn't that powerful during the war against the Free Lands, but he was surely there, commanding an army against Lencia for example. It is better for Naar to have a Darklord using a weapon and survive its use than a Drakkar dying after a month or two by using it.
From now on, I consider this as a spoiler for those who are waiting to read these books on PA for the first time.
Book 16: Naar lost his dear Darklords, but he wants them back... at least one of them. So he created a weapon to bring Vashna back. Remember that we already stopped him to revive this Darklord before the war against the Darklands in book 4 and that Lone Wolf has the weapon that was supposed to bring him back to life. Naar needed to create another weapon with the same capacity and he needed time to create it.
Book 17:Ixiataaga was imprisoned in a magical prison by the Elder Magi. Maybe Naar was so mad that he said to him: "I won't free you now. You'll stay there for a few thousands years as a reward for your failure". And so, Ixy waited there until Naar helped him to get free when he saw that there was an opportunity to do something good with him and the Deathstaff. Again, he didn't saw the need to free him before because of his Darklords.
Book 18: Naar created the Dragons after the lost of the Darklords because he didn't have the need to create them before. And he unleashed them when he thought that he had an opportunity to destroy the New Order while their Master was away.
Book 19: It took 3 Magnamund years to Naar to create Wolf's Bane as a revenge (he seems to love revenge) for the lost of the Dragons. But time seems to go faster in the Dark Realm, so he might created it in only 2 or 3 days of his Realm's time. This might explained why he didn't gave any news earlier. And Wolf's Bane isn't that strong: the minimum combat ratio is -4.
Book 20: Kakataag is strong, but he is in the Dark Realm. Maybe in Magnamund he would have been weaker? Again, Naar wasn't seeing the need to create it when he had the Darklords but no Moonstone.
See? That's how I explain why the ennemies are so strong in the GM series and why they weren't there to help the Darklords.
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Post by Zipp on Oct 25, 2004 7:41:51 GMT
Actually, well done... although I think the Dawn of the Dragons explanation is a bit weak... though that is a great adventure, one of the bests, I think.
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Post by Nyxator on Oct 25, 2004 10:38:18 GMT
There's also a simple and unquestionable explanation for books 16-20 [VERY BIG SPOILER] In previous books, Naar doesn't have the Moonstone and he can't open those shadow gates. I also think that Wolf's Bane was some sort of Jahksa created by Naar with the power of the Moonstone. [/SPOILER]
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Post by Zipp on Oct 25, 2004 17:51:32 GMT
Ah, very true very true. So, what was the status of Naar shaping up to be near the end of the New Order? Is it going to get resolved, or is it the age old connumdrum of "Where there is light, there is dark?"
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Post by Black Cat on Oct 25, 2004 18:41:57 GMT
Actually, well done... although I think the Dawn of the Dragons explanation is a bit weak... though that is a great adventure, one of the bests, I think. It's one of my favorite too. But about the Dragons, I actually think that if they would have been there during the war against the Darklords, they would have been fighting them instead of helping them so that they could rule over the Darklands. What a waste of time and energy it would have been for Naar.
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Post by Laguna Blade on Nov 17, 2004 9:55:37 GMT
So, what are you trying to say is his forces of Evil is a fail creation, whereby they can't get themselves allied one to another.
What a mess to Naar himself having a messy forces to rule! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Sol on Dec 15, 2004 18:25:46 GMT
I often wondered why Kai and Ishar didn't create / send additional great champions to help LW. I mean, Naar sent HOW MANY Darklords? If you make it all the way to Book 12 (when the Kai are reborn en force) you can suggest that the Great God Kai was channeling all his efforts into LW's survival. If LW had died, would Kai or Ishar have produced a new hero? What about Banedon? Why did Grey Star never arrive to assist LW after the Wytch King was out of the picture?
Maybe LW is just that good all by himself.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 16, 2004 3:29:29 GMT
Or maybe they were all getting drunk at the party he wasn't invited to.
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Post by BenKenobi on Dec 19, 2004 20:42:02 GMT
Ehi boys, don't forget that it is a common feature in all role-playing stuff and games: the more you go on with the story, the stronger the enemies become. Besides all, if our hero becomes stronger, he needs stronger enemies, and the author makes possible for the evil dude to create them !!! It is implied in the mechanic of experience. If you think that Haakon, with his poor CS 28, was in charge of the Darklords that in the Magnakai serie have an average score of 45 ... !!! It seems to be the weakest of them, not their head... Keep this in mind, when you look an explanation for the appearance of stronger enemies. Cadak becomes powerful AS a Darklord, at his maximum: CS 45. Magnaarn has the Doomstone. And so on...
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Post by outspaced on Dec 19, 2004 22:39:08 GMT
Perhaps Naar only has so much evil energy that he can give out, so that when he has twenty Darklords to sustain, they are all weaker, but the fewer there are, the stronger the remaining ones become? Thus, when they're all dead, Cadak (Naar's champion at the time) can receive Naar's undivided attention and become stronger than an individual Darklord when there were multiple of them on Magnamund.
Just a thought.
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Post by Sol on Dec 19, 2004 23:50:10 GMT
We can get away with a weak Haakon since Darklords are weaker outside of the Darklands. As for Cadak, I have no excuse, but I like the theories proposed.
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Post by BenKenobi on Dec 20, 2004 19:06:30 GMT
Perhaps Naar only has so much evil energy that he can give out, so that when he has twenty Darklords to sustain, they are all weaker, but the fewer there are, the stronger the remaining ones become? Thus, when they're all dead, Cadak (Naar's champion at the time) can receive Naar's undivided attention and become stronger than an individual Darklord when there were multiple of them on Magnamund. Just a thought. Does Naar send continuosly waves of energy to his evil dudes on the Magnamund ?? It doesn't seem so. Probably the reason of the empowering of Cadak is the sphere, that makes it possible to communicate with Naar himself (book n.13); or in the achievements made in the Nadziranim magic at Kaag (book n.14); or something like this.
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