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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Dec 28, 2004 11:49:20 GMT
A few months ago I issued a challenge: complete the series with no disciplines of any kind! It's your first day at the Monastery, and BANG! It's an invasion! You're nothing more than a regular joe with some Kai potential, so it's up to you to save Sommerlund. Can it be done?
For starters, I kicked off with a CS of 19 and an EP of 29. Having no Disciplines is handicap enough. I also save my progress at the start of each book. I don't mind going back to the start when trying to do things by the book, but for this little project I die far too much...
So how did I go?
Book 1 is still pretty easy, as long as I don't go off exploring. The only disappointment is that you can't meet Banedon, but luckily it doesn't impact your chance of success.
Book 2 is hard - that Helghast fight can be a killer. But if you have the Shield and full EP it's quite doable, even without Mindshield. After that, the Sommerswerd is a damn fine equaliser.
Book 3 is as easy as ever. I'm not averse to the slaughter of old men, so no nasty Kalkoth battles for me. The only problematic area is the ice river, and I had no worries with that.
Book 4 is pretty easy as well. I didn't notice any significant disadvantages from my lack of Disciplines.
Book 5 is a killer. Escaping from the Zakhan's palace is a deathtrap, with a lot of instant death rolls that Disciplines make easy to avoid. I had a good four or five deaths here before getting through.
Book 6, no problems. I went for the Bronin Warhammer rather than the Silver Bow, mainly because I'd never gone that way before. I was also thinking that I could use the CS bonus (I'm a dual wielder!) before I realised that the Shield is better if I don't have Weaponmastery. Ah well, Altan would probably have beaten me anyway.
Book 7 was surprisingly difficult. I kept bumping into creatures that did double or even triple damage, and as I didn't have Curing I couldn't counteract them. The attrition of EP loss added up, and I had a good four or five deaths in this book.
Book 8 was again difficult - that Gnaag Helghast is nasty without Psi-Screen. I decided to bypass it, though I may regret not getting the Grey Crystal Ring. I died a few times here due to the Helghast, but after I worked out the way around it things weren't too hard.
Book 9 was a book in which I again died through attrition. Lack of CS bonuses coupled with no healing from Disciplines is nasty. Plus, without Disciplines, I don't think you can lose the Sommerswerd when you;re arrested - I couldn't escape from jail, and my stuff was returned to me by the Sage. The Psychic Ghoul did me in on my one attempt, alas...
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Post by Sol on Dec 28, 2004 13:36:19 GMT
Nathan
That is one awesome challenge! I may try it sometime! Here is a question for you:
Do you pick up a Kai Discipline once you have completed Book 1 (progress to Doan)? Or does Lone Wolf -never- obtain any disciplines?
I can see how Book 5 would be tough. It is amazing how much we take the Kai Disciplines for granted once we have them. There are areas that I have never explored simply because of my choice of Disciplines.
I agree that it is best to have a nice high CS and EP to help with the loss of Kai Disciplines (and especially Magnakai Disciplines). It would be hardest to do without WeaponMastery and Psi-Surge I think since these give you the boost you need to fight certain hard combats.
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Post by Darkash on Dec 28, 2004 21:29:19 GMT
Hello Nathan. I saw this challenge a while back, and I tried it out for a while. It was certainly tough. Now maybe I will try it again and see how it goes. It is amazing how much replay value a 10+ year old series of books can hold, huh?
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Dec 30, 2004 12:26:35 GMT
Sol: Lone Wolf gets no Disciplines. I think the Kai series would still be pretty easy if I was getting one per book completed, even without the 5 Disciplines I'd be missing. Some Disciplines would make a big difference during the Magnakai series, especially those that boost CS, or stop you from losing EP. Without Healing or Curing, EP is at a premium - Laumspur Potions are a lot more important.
I should be back into the swing of things once Christmas, the New Year and my birthday are out of the way. Expect my findings on Book 9 in the next week or so.
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Post by BenKenobi on Jan 1, 2005 20:23:04 GMT
Well, I guess your road is gonna be stopped by the 2 nasty boys of book 9 & 10 ... without all the CS bonuses that come from the skills, you need a lot of luck !!! But it is surprising that the complete lack of skills isn't a great threat for completing almost all adventures... I believed it was nearly impossible to complete the Magnakai serie without the right choices and the highest number of skills
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Jan 3, 2005 7:36:05 GMT
BenKenobi: Believe me, it's difficult. I've had quite a few deaths in Books 7, 8 and 9, and that's with me knowing the paths pretty well. The thing is, those paths I knew were good when I had Disciplines, but they're not so good now!
Alas, though, my run seems to have ended with Book 9. With a CS of 31, I can't beat Zakhan Kimah. I'm pretty sure I've got everything I can use, but here's a list:
19 CS + Shield: 21CS + Silver Helmet: 23 CS + Sommerswerd: 31 CS.
I've got the +4 Alether (I had enough stocked up to justify Lone Wolf doing some safekeeping!), but that brings my CS to only 35. This still puts me at a still insurmountable disadvantage.
Perhaps I'll give it a go without the 'swerd...
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Post by Darkash on Jan 3, 2005 20:07:58 GMT
Nathan: Your best chance would be with the Dagger, I would think. Of course. you would need a lot of luck just to get to Kimah, and even then it would be a 50/50 flip. Still, what do you expect? (How many would's is that? Jeeze!)
EDIT: Make that your only chance. However, it is possible, as I have just proved. First try, no cheating, although there was a tight moment at the end where I rolled a 5 for the dagger throw. I had the Bronin Warhammer plus the Shield and the Silver Helmet and the two vests for protection. I used one +4END Laumspur potion.
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Jan 4, 2005 10:46:58 GMT
Yeah, I'd definitely planned on going with the Dagger of Vashna against Kimah, and leaving my not-so-trusty Sommerswerd at home. I don't recall any insanely difficult combats in Book 9 (besides the last one!) so I should do okay.
Books 10 and 11 will be tough, though, as I've decided to leave the Sommerswerd behind for those as well. I figure that I should be able to do Book 10 via the Hellswamp without much trouble, but Book 11 might be where I'll have to give up. But we shall see...
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Post by Sol on Jan 4, 2005 19:05:23 GMT
Book 11 is tough - bring the Sommerswerd and have a difficult fight against the Chaos Master. Leave the Sommerswerd and have a difficult fight against the Villians of Sommerlund AND Vonotar. I wonder if Joe meant to have a Sommerswerd-less version of the fight at the end of the book... then forgot. He -does- do this for just about every other book. Spoilers: Book 3 - Vonotar's Pet can be beaten if you have the Effigy Book 4 - Barraka can be beaten if you have the Holy Water Book 5 - Book checks to see if you have SS
Book 9 checks and scales the final fight appropriately Book 11 sort of does Book 12 does too
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Post by Zipp on Jan 6, 2005 4:19:28 GMT
We could sort of pretend that Lone Wolf finds a Chaos Master effigy, which he uses to send against Vonotar and his minions. Can't you just see Vonotar's face when you beat him with a da mn effigy for the SECOND time?
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Post by Sol on Jan 6, 2005 4:59:47 GMT
We could sort of pretend that Lone Wolf finds a Chaos Master effigy, which he uses to send against Vonotar and his minions. Can't you just see Vonotar's face when you beat him with a da mn effigy for the SECOND time? HA HA HA! That's an AWESOME idea! Of course Vonotar probably got wise after the first time, but then again if he is stupid enough to leave the effigy lying around the first time, he's probably stupid enough to do it again.
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Jan 6, 2005 13:22:06 GMT
I'm attempting Book 10 now, without Disciplines or the Sommerswerd. It's hard. Very, very hard.
I've tried the route through the Hellswamp a few times, with no luck. With a CS of 24 there are a whole lot of battles that are wearing me down gradually. Book 10 doesn't provide many opportunities for regaining EP, either.
The Battle of Cetza is surprisingly a bit easier, though not by much. Avoiding the Ziran with the Powerstave is a necessity, of course, and you thankfully don't have to do battle with Baron Shinzar. Alas, his Krorn are quite difficult as it is. God knows how I used to regularly complete this book back before I had Book 2. I think the Random Number Table may have had a lot to do with it.
So, I might give the route through the Isle of Ghosts a whirl. I remember a pretty tough fight with Akataz, though, so who knows. I'm screwed anyway if I have to fight Demonlord Tagazin...
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Post by BenKenobi on Jan 6, 2005 14:49:00 GMT
Joe Dever uses the Sommerswerd as a "power meter" of the player. If you have the Sommerswerd, it is supposed that you have played past adventures and you have a strong character... besides the +8 CS bonus. Without the Sommerswerd, you are supposed to be a not-so-strong character. So, for your challenge with no disciplines, I bet the BEST thing to do in Magnakai serie is to put away the Sommerswerd. The golden sword makes it easy during the adventures, but makes it impossibile the hard combats. Put the Sommerswerd in Safekeeping and use it for book 12. Of course i DON'T do so, when playing normally with disciplines... I would never separate from it !!!
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Post by Sol on Jan 6, 2005 18:26:08 GMT
Joe Dever uses the Sommerswerd as a "power meter" of the player. If you have the Sommerswerd, it is supposed that you have played past adventures and you have a strong character... besides the +8 CS bonus. Without the Sommerswerd, you are supposed to be a not-so-strong character. So, for your challenge with no disciplines, I bet the BEST thing to do in Magnakai serie is to put away the Sommerswerd. The golden sword makes it easy during the adventures, but makes it impossibile the hard combats. Put the Sommerswerd in Safekeeping and use it for book 12. Of course i DON'T do so, when playing normally with disciplines... I would never separate from it !!! This is even easier. Although there is no Safekeeping in Book 2, 3, or later, there is nothing to stop you from just throwing the Sommerswerd away. I mean, the rules say you are allowed to throw away any item at any time, so you could even throw it away as soon as you get it if you wanted (which would remove all sense from section 350 of Book 2 where you use SS to blow Zagarna to pieces, but so what?) My point - it is possible to get rid of the Sommerswerd early even though you can't technically place it in Safekeeping yet.
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Post by Sol on Jan 6, 2005 22:14:39 GMT
I've tried the route through the Hellswamp a few times, with no luck. With a CS of 24 there are a whole lot of battles that are wearing me down gradually. Book 10 doesn't provide many opportunities for regaining EP, either. I seem to remember that if you have Invisibility, this helps out A LOT. But of course, you can't, so ouch! You have to fight. Unless there is a secret no-fight path you can use. Good luck! Joe says you can always make it through with a "Wise Choice of Disciplines", but what about without? Ah, there is the challenge!
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