|
Post by Ghost Bear on Feb 18, 2005 13:58:43 GMT
Hey folks. Just noticed a discrepancy and wanted to get some opinions.
Once you reach the rank of Mentora, you add +5 to your RN rolls to hit with a bow (+3 for Weaponmastery, +2 for Weaponmastery at Mentora level).
However, in the Grand Master series, the description of the GM skill 'Grand Weaponmastery' at the start doesn't say anything about adding +5 to your Bow rolls. Also, throughout the series, it instructs you to add +3 to your RN rolls with a Bow if you have G. Weaponmastery with the Bow.
This means that you're less effective with a Bow in the GM series than in the Magnakai series.
So is this right? Here are several interpretations of this rule as I see them.
1. Joe Dever decided that Lone Wolf's bow skill in the Magnakai series was overpowered, and decided to tone it down. You really do only add +3 for G.Weaponmastery with a Bow.
2. The +3 thing is an error, and you should really be adding +5.
3. The +3 thing is not an error, but you can carry your +5 from the Magnakai series over as a loyalty bonus.
4. Something else.
So, what're your thoughts on this one, folks?
-GB
|
|
|
Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 18, 2005 15:09:08 GMT
Although I'm not really into the Grandmaster series, as far as I know the standard bonus of Grand Weaponmastery is +5, isn't it? - This would be an indication for point 2.(error). IMO loyalty boni should apply anyway. It's far too inconsistent that LW become less effective while advancing. As I played the Magnakai series for the first times I didn't use loyalty boni (not knowing of it and holding to the written word only). It was quite confusing to see LW becoming weaker while progressing to a master...
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Feb 18, 2005 15:44:51 GMT
I just checked in the rules handbook of Project Aon. If you check the section about the Magnakai Discipline of Weaponmastery, there's that little italize section under it saying that you can add 3 when you use the RNT with a bow. I always thought that the italize sections where added by PA's staff, so IMO this +3 bonus wasn't Joe's idea. If you don't take this bonus in consideration (which I consider now as a house rule), this means that you can add 2 only when you reach the Mentora level, and you replace that number by a +3 in the GM series, which makes more sense if you're talking about how good LW is getting while climbing each level in the Kai hierarchy.
I think that the +3 bonus created by the staff was made so because they were thinking that otherwise there would be no bonus at all if you pick the Weaponmastery for a bow (because nothing was said about it in the original books). But, in the sections telling you to use the bow with the RNT, it is said very often to add 3 to the number. Just take for example section 170 of book 6. If you apply the bonus create by the staff, the calculation is to add 3 from the house rule of Weaponmastery, another 3 because it is said so in this section, and maybe another 3 if you have the Silver Bow RN+3+3+3= RN+9 There's no challenge now! So, my suggestion is to not take in consideration the little italize section and add only a bonus when it is said so in the book.
|
|
|
Post by Doomy on Feb 18, 2005 16:25:23 GMT
Black Cat - I agree wholeheartedly. Something seems terribly wrong when you are asked to pick a random number and realise your bonuses are so huge that there really isn't any point.
|
|
|
Post by Ghost Bear on Feb 18, 2005 17:08:23 GMT
Yes, that would make more sense. Can anyone check a proper copy of a Magnakai book and confirm that this is the case?
-GB
|
|
|
Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 18, 2005 17:24:03 GMT
You may be right.. But your interpretation would imply that the Weaponmastery with Bows only has any effect at all when mentioned explicitly in the section, which is not true with the rest of the Weaponmastery skill.. I always read it like Ghost Bear. Assuming the text telling you to add the bonus is only a reminder of the effect of your Weaponmastery. That would give a total bonus of +6 in the example given by Black Cat: ... If you apply the bonus create by the staff, the calculation is to add 3 from the house rule of Weaponmastery, another 3 because it is said so in this section, and maybe another 3 if you have the Silver Bow RN+3+3+3= RN+9 ... RN+3+3= RN+6 regardless of the text telling you explicitly to add your WM bonus. What should be the explanation for adding sometimes a bonus from WM to your shot, sometimes not..
|
|
|
Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 18, 2005 18:17:01 GMT
Yes, that would make more sense. Can anyone check a proper copy of a Magnakai book and confirm that this is the case? -GB I just found the confirmation of my approach in the text of the "How to use your Equipment" section under 'Bows and Arrows' of the Magnakai books. But I only took a look at the online versions! - I will check a 'proper copy' out soon. But won't be able to post the result today...
|
|
|
Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Feb 19, 2005 7:29:23 GMT
My interpretation of the rules is this:
I add +3 to all of my roles due to Weaponmastery. It is specifically stated that this is the case in the Magnakai rules - look under Bow and Arrows in the How to Use Your Equipment section.
I add a further +2 upon reaching the rank of Mentora.
To avoid absolute powergaming, I have the +3 for Grand Weaponmastery replace the +2 for reaching the level of Mentora. This gives me a total of +6, which seems reasonable to me.
|
|
|
Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 19, 2005 14:24:46 GMT
Citation: "... If you have the Magnakai Discipline of Weaponmastery with a bow, you may add 3 to any number that you choose from the Random Number Table, when using the bow. ..." ( The Kingdoms of Terror, p.27) Text © Joe Dever and Gary Chalk 1985
|
|
|
Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 19, 2005 14:51:53 GMT
My interpretation of the rules is this: I add +3 to all of my roles due to Weaponmastery. It is specifically stated that this is the case in the Magnakai rules - look under Bow and Arrows in the How to Use Your Equipment section. I add a further +2 upon reaching the rank of Mentora. To avoid absolute powergaming, I have the +3 for Grand Weaponmastery replace the +2 for reaching the level of Mentora. This gives me a total of +6, which seems reasonable to me. Reasonable maybe, but remember: Stacking is a house rule! Kai disciplines of different level (Kai, Magnakai, and the rest) do not stack. The bonus should be replaced. This would maybe mean something like when LW acquires Mentora level, he is already as proficient in the use of missiles as with the Grand Weaponmastery of bows. (Analogical to the Healing/Curing of +1 EP per section..) Assuming that the +3 of Grand Weaponmastery w/ bow is indeed an error and should be +5.
|
|
|
Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Feb 20, 2005 6:59:02 GMT
I don't really consider it stacking, and I like to follow the letter of Joe Dever's wording wherever possible. The way I see it, I already have a +5 bonus by the time I finish the Magnakai series. Then Joe comes along and says, "You have a +3 bonus!" But why would Lone Wolf get less skillful?
I suppose that I could just say that Lone Wolf stays the same - the Weaponmastery and Grand Weaponmastery bonuses are identical, and Lone Wolf keeps the Mentora bonus. But I believe that taking Grand Weaponmastery really ought to give you some sort of bonus. In my case, it replaces the Mentora bonus for a total of +6.
|
|
|
Post by Sailor on Feb 20, 2005 10:34:02 GMT
...and if you are a Scion-Kai (Magnakai-ranks) you can add 4 points to your combat skill. This improves your weaponmastery. But could you use this for a bow?
|
|
|
Post by Ofecks on Feb 20, 2005 21:48:57 GMT
3. The +3 thing is not an error, but you can carry your +5 from the Magnakai series over as a loyalty bonus. This is correct.
|
|
|
Post by Racebred on Feb 21, 2005 3:24:44 GMT
I'd like to think that as a grand master LW dos get more skillful but the reason why it's only +3 in the GM series is that the scale is already adjusted to fit. So a +3 in the GM series doesnt mean that he's less skillful but that the choices are scaled according to this new level.
Coz if you stack up the bonus, plus the silver bow of duadon, there's almost no chance that you'll ever miss.
besides, with kai alchemy, the use of the bow has been made totally redundant.
|
|
|
Post by Peregrine on Feb 21, 2005 22:00:16 GMT
Coz if you stack up the bonus, plus the silver bow of duadon, there's almost no chance that you'll ever miss. And this is a bad thing? We are talking about Grand Master Lone Wolf... by this point there should be some pretty impressive shots that he just doesn't miss. A bow saves you the need to take an extra Discipline, if you have a different Discipline set in mind.
|
|