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Post by Dusk Fox on Aug 15, 2005 15:19:33 GMT
Back before I'd actually ever seen a New Order book (when I first found out they existed), I understood that Lone Wolf as the main character was retired, and you would be taking up the role of a different Kai Lord. I realized that the adventures would be all new, and you'd be playing the next generation of Kai. This was all fine to me, because I felt like Lone Wolf had gotten to the point where he could have taken out Kai and replaced him if he got a bug up his ass about it.
I was actually really disappointed to find that you just end up playing another Grand Master, and you actually have a wider array of powers. I thought, "If you're going to just get more powerful, why not keep playing Lone Wolf rather than switching up for Random Wolf?"
What I'm getting at is that I would have been more interested in playing your basic Kai Lord--just a young Initiate like Lone Wolf, with the basic Disciplines, back when everything was a challenge and every combat could have resulted in a serious butt kicking. Am I alone in this? Wouldn't that have been... I dunno... more fun?
So here's a poll. You tell me what you think. Would it have been better to start as an Initiate, like Lone Wolf? Would Magnakai have been better, seeing as you wouldn't need any excuse to be out in the world doing good and not at the Monastery training? Are you fine with Grand Kai, but you would have rather played a less generic, random character? Do you just want your beloved Grey Star back for more adventures? Or Banedon, for that matter? Or some random Giak wanderer? Let me know!
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Post by outspaced on Aug 15, 2005 17:53:36 GMT
I think how it was done was fine, so that's how I voted. That said, a short series of books playing Banedon would have also been good, but only if they dropped back in time to MS5050, otherwise as Guildmaster he's far too tough to keep playing. Same with Lone Wolf--he's really too mean to keep playing.
But dropping way back down to playing another Initiate would make the adventures far less epic, which is obviously a few steps back after The Curse of Naar. I can't see Lone Wolf sending anyone below Grand Master level off into Southern Magnamund, for example. So Joe would more likely have to invent a slew of low-level bad guys (the vast majority of the existing ones having already been killed off by Lone Wolf in the course of his adventures), which sounds a bit formulaic.
I also feel a less generic Grand Master character would seem far too restrictive.
Good poll, DF. I'm very interested in what others think and feel on this matter.
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Post by Dusk Fox on Aug 15, 2005 18:24:16 GMT
Thanks for the thoughts, Outs. Now for my responses to your opinions!
The Banedon adventures would definitely be stepping back to MS 5050, and would occur concurrently with the Lone Wolf books (using the adventure in the MC as the springboard). Banedon had plenty of adventures of his own, and it might even be cool to play the adventures that intersect with Lone Wolf from Banedon’s point of view (as he had plenty to do in each instance).
Dropping down to play another Initiate would be less epic in the beginning, sure, but it wouldn’t take much to make that rise up. Here’s a generic opener: you are a Kai Initiate on a diplomatic mission with a Grand Master when the peace talks are suddenly attacked by a horde of Drakkarim. You fight your way to safety, but your tutor is not so lucky (having been in the worst of it), and you are taken captive along with others from the meeting, and must escape and free the prisoners. However, you are stranded where you are, so ensuing books would be your fight back to the Monastery to warn the other Kai of some “impending doom.” This is enough to take up three books at least, the end of which may have you join a group of Kai Lords to scout out this danger (because you have firsthand knowledge of the enemy), where even more deadly perils await. See? Epic! You wouldn’t get a crack at the really tough villains, but there are plenty of opportunities for underlings (and don’t forget; the first two Lone Wolf books didn’t have ubervillains for your to fight, either).
I don’t know why a less generic Grand Master would feel too restrictive, either. I mean, instead of playing Adjective Animal, you’d be Fat Hawk or Stank Skunk or Hungry Hippo, and your character would have… you know… some sort of story.
Thanks for your opinions--I wanted to spark some conversation here, and I can totally see your points (though I’m of the opposing viewpoint). It may seem like a letdown to go from Kai Surge and the Sommerswerd to Mindblast and generic swords, but I think there’s something to be said for going back to basics and starting anew. After all, when I finish a high-level D&D campaign and it’s time to play again, I like starting from scratch better than making another high-level character.
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Post by shadowfalcon on Aug 16, 2005 0:15:44 GMT
well with how it was done i would of liked to at least see the completion of the new order disiplines so i could how what the pinacle skills are in the new order disiplines. i udnerstand most oi the disipliens are the same such as grand huntmastery and such their bonuses stay the same but what of the new disiplines such as astrology i would of liekd to know what great powers these ended up bestowing towards the higher end
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Post by shadowfalcon on Aug 16, 2005 0:16:23 GMT
oh i would of also liekd to known more about how the magic was done like the different spells and such for example 2nd level spells and such
overal it was done great but hoenstly i would of lvoed to see some bandon books done on a similiar setting as the lone wolf books
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Post by Al on Aug 16, 2005 9:06:52 GMT
I voted initiate, and this is why. Just because an initiate is in training does not mean he NEVER leaves the monistary, does he? I can think of millions of fun and realistic adventures that he could have as he gains experiance. A thieves guild in his home town, a convoy coming under attack as he is traveling in it and he has to rescue someone. DFs ideas are brilliant as well. I do not think that everything that you do has to be of epic proportions, just realistic and challenging building up to epic stuff. Just because LW killed all the main bad guys Magnamund has ever created does not mean that their are no minor ones left to deal with for more junior people.
I also like the idea Young Banedon as well, that would be fun, as would playing a Giak, which would probably mean some really interesting plot twists.
Anyways, starting just like LW with five disciplines would enable you to start as an Initiate and progress through the ranks (I think some of the rank names are indicative that you would be out in the world, ie Warman, Guardian, Savant, Journeyman all imply being out and doing stuff)
Starting as a generic Grand Master always seemed a bit odd to me, after all, how many would there be at any given time? Logic would indicate that their would be a handful at best, I can only immagine how long it would take someone to rise that high (assuming that every one could). I always assumed that Initate was where an aspiring Kai Lord would start his or her worldy adventures.
Just some thoughts for a new and interesting thread, thanks DF
Al
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Post by outspaced on Aug 16, 2005 10:23:45 GMT
Thing about that scenario, DF, is that it's exactly the same as Flight from the Dark, which would make it more repetitive than epic. Purely from a publishing standpoint, no company would want to embark upon another 20-book series, especially one that repeats the existing series right from the start. And I'm not sure I'd want to read one. As for the less generic bit--I've spent 20 books playing the most important man in the world, Lone Wolf. To then be told, "He's too tough now; so he's being retired, but another named character is being raised up," would be very anti-climactic. The idea that the Grand master is named is to say he's now the most important character on Magnamund, almost as though Lone Wolf is an irrelevance. Hmm . . . I know what I mean, I'm just failing at explaining it. :-\ Fact is, an unnamed Kai Grand Master with no background 'baggage' is preferable. Otherwise you get the feeling that this Kai Lord will supercede Lone Wolf in a very long-running series of adventures . . . boring! I've stopped reading series in the past, or have refused to start reading them, because the author is dragging things out unnecessarily over too many books. Or maybe that he will discover a new level beyond Kai Supreme Master and get another series of books in his quest to attain that, which would just be silly. You invest in Lone Wolf as a character because he's the last; when there are many Kai Lords, there's no real need to invest as much into the character; after all, he's entirely expendable--which is as it should be. Ever play Neverwinter Nights and the expansions? In the first game, you start off at 1st level. In the expansion games, you start off at (IIRC) 6th or 7th level. This is because the game would be too difficult at low levels, but also too long and boring. All the interesting stuff would have to be removed to make way for 1 Hit Dice creatures. So while I understand and agree about returning to Level 1, certain games/scenarios require that you have previously attained a certain level of experience so that you can skip the introductory/beginner stuff and get straight into the plot. The NO series is just like that--skip the CS10 EP 12 Giaks and get right to the action. After all, there was an over-arcing plot to the NO series (whatever it was ), one that would have been impossible had the player been a wet-behind-the-ears Initiate; rather than 12 books it would have taken a further 24 (5 for Kai, 7 for Magnakai, 12 for Grand Master). That's an awful lot of "filler" material to get to any kind of satisfactory conclusion, which is apparently what Book 32 would have been. @ Al: Actually, Initiates wouldn't leave the Kai Monastery--not until they reach the rank of Warmarn (which is why that rank is also called Journeyman).
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Post by North Star on Aug 16, 2005 10:51:45 GMT
Heh. I went for the status quo, if only because the Moonstone DID need to be taken and there is no way that LW would have asked a non-GM to do it! NS.
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Post by Al on Aug 16, 2005 10:52:52 GMT
Hih Outspaced, I did not know that, but it makes sense. Then that is the rank you would leave to explore the world and gain new experiance beyond the monistary? That, though, goes to the point of having junior people to start with... Al
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Post by Al on Aug 16, 2005 10:54:03 GMT
Heh. I went for the status quo, if only because the Moonstone DID need to be taken and there is no way that LW would have asked a non-GM to do it! NS. Yeah, but that assumes taht the same adventures would be used, I think both my and DFs line of arguement is that thier is a lot of fun and exciting stuff for the junior members to do Al
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Post by North Star on Aug 16, 2005 10:55:21 GMT
As you wish, Al, but DF asked a question and I answered. Had he asked "Do you want to play as a non-specific Initiate?", I would probably have said 'no' anyway, but then I'm not a massive fan of low-level games anyway! NS.
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Post by Al on Aug 16, 2005 12:16:20 GMT
That is interesting, I always prefer the low level characters, when a simple encounter with an orc becomes a life or death situation it kind of keeps me on my toes! But that is just me Al
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Post by shadowfalcon on Aug 16, 2005 12:57:45 GMT
one that would be intersting is playing from the standpoint of a young cener druid and rebuildig hte forcesof darkness and gaining your own power would be quite interesting
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Post by Runeheart on Aug 16, 2005 13:48:24 GMT
Or a drakkar that starts as a solder and as he grows and gains experience he joins different units ie, tukodak (assault troops,ill Book9), or Zaggrazod ( particularly cavalry like in Book 14, good ill) then finally a Death Knight ( and the training at the Palace of War in Helgadad, ofcourse that's destroyed maybe Torgar, Kagorst or Shpydar they are all (Darklord ruled) Drakkar cities, and develop more locations that may not be visited ordinarily...
I said it before but the imagary of the death knights is evocative and very characterful (checkout the mission before the battle of Cetza as a brief introduction)and a picture of a death knight with a two-handed axe over his head.
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Post by Runeheart on Aug 16, 2005 14:29:28 GMT
That is interesting, I always prefer the low level characters, when a simple encounter with an orc becomes a life or death situation it kind of keeps me on my toes! As a gamer I totally agree with you Al, but if I was publisher (or reading new books as novels), I can't see how it would work, the reader already has an extensive background knowledge ,from previous gamebooks in this case, the situations will be different but how do you avoid re-churning the same ideas (ie, stop Vashna being raised the fourth time), new protagontist (bloke with dagger,staff or other artifact) but still the same situation... For instance, as an initiate you are given the task of delivering a package to Lyris or Hammerdal, (as a veteran reader) you already know the journey,and the 'sneaky' way into Hammerdal. Then after approx 12 books as a developing junior leader (your nemisis, whoever he is) sends you into a shadowgate, (as a veteran reader) you already know what to expect (even if the destination is different)
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