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Post by Ofecks on Jul 28, 2020 17:31:52 GMT
That's right! Good to know, thank you.
Just some random thoughts since I've been thinking about SS Awards again - if there were a "boss fight" award for the MK series what would it be? Targets fought to the death in combat (no evading) with their highest possible stats.
6 - Varettian Mercenaries + Yawshath (former has highest combat stats in the book)
7 - Zagothal + Zhada Beastmen + Zhada
8 - Helghast (with 'Swerd)
9 - Dragon + Kimah (both by 'Swerding)
10 - Ziran + the Guy with the flaming axe + Tagazin (this one would be a doozy)
11 - Chaos-Master (with 'Swerd) + Zhengha
12 - Kraagenskul + Taktaal + Gnaag (all with DoV)
And some hints:
"Prove yourself more than worthy of the title of Kai Grand Master by standing toe-to-toe with the toughest optional foes throughout the Magnakai adventure"
"Some adventures require multiple epic combats, and you cannot evade combat nor dispatch them through other means"
"You will need The Sommerswerd and Dagger of Vashna, but you must be selective about when to use them"
"Emerge victorious in fights to the death with Varettian Mercenaries, Yawshath, Zagothal, Zhada Beastmen, Lord Zhada, Gnaag Helghast, Zakhan Kimah, Zadragon, Ziran, Baron Shinzar, Demonlord Tagazin, Chaos-Master, Zhengha, Darklord Kraagenskul, Darklord Taktaal, and Darklord Gnaag, all in the toughest version of each combat"
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Post by norshire on Jul 29, 2020 0:34:51 GMT
Honza, thanks for the tip! I didn't realize that the Ookor charm did anything. Re: boss fight awards -- For Book 11, I have to nominate the Yoacor you fight really early in the book. I've died to him more times than anything else since I started keeping track in this book! Overall, I like your list. For Book 8, maybe Kezoor? He's nowhere near as tough as the Helghast, though. For Book 10, oof. Ziran + Baron Shinzar can be done easily on the Battle of Cetza route, but getting to the Isle of Ghosts after the battle isn't the easiest sequence to hit. I kind of like the idea of one "boss" to fight in each book. The best/most iconic choices 6 - Yawshath 7 - Zhada 8 - Helghast 9 - Kimah (although forcing you to face the Zadragon is fiendish, I like it as part of an award) 10 - Baron Shinzar or Tagazin 11 - Chaos-Master or Villains of Sommerlund 12 - Gnaag For Book 12, I'd go with DoV *or* with Helshezag as the requirement.
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Post by Ofecks on Jul 29, 2020 22:24:31 GMT
I looked up the Yoacor and you only have to fight him if you're going for the fresh start award, assuming you have to take WM/PSurge/Curing. You can use Pathsmanship-Scion-Kai or non-ranked Divination to bypass it.
I also like the idea of having one fight per book, but some of the obvious choices aren't the hardest fights. I guess that'd be fine since the spear Helghast in book 2 isn't the hardest fight either, stats-wise.
Going to Isle of Ghosts in book 10 after Cetza, even with Huntmastery-Primate for the roll bonus, is a 50/50. You do need a ranked HM or Pathsmanship to even get that option, though.
Keezor and the Zadragon already have awards associated with them. Not sure if it would be appropriate to include them. Same with fights you're forced to do like Chaos-Master and Villains. Just basing that last thing off of all the Kai series bosses being optional.
I think book restarts would have to be allowed here. Imagine if the MK one existed as I typed it, and you got all the way to book 10 having survived many nasty encounters, managed to kill the 2 guys in Cetza, but rolled the wrong 50/50. Yeesh.
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Post by norshire on Jul 30, 2020 17:06:12 GMT
More:
Monday's trials:
Died vs. Chaos Master (he had 3 EP left, drat)
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor (facepalm)
Died vs. Villains of Sommerlund (after healing to full). Furthest I've gotten since I started chasing this stupid "fresh start" award.
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor...again. Crazy bad RNG.
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor.
Tuesday's trials:
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor in 4 rounds
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor, lasted 6 rounds this time!
Died vs. Shadow Reavers (simultaneous death)
Died vs. Vonotar the Traitor (I had 3 EP left when the fight started). Furthest I've gotten so far!
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor.
Wednesday's Trials:
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor in 5 rounds
Died vs. Wounded Yoacor in 4 rounds (rolled 10 for Shadow gate damage on this run)
Died vs. the poison gas at Baylon's Tomb (I mis-clicked the option here, ouch!)
Died vs. Vonotar the Traitor (simultaneous death; I had 10 EP when the fight started)
SUCCESS! AT LONG LAST, SUCCESS! I fought Vonotar and won with ONE EP LEFT!
... Strangely, Wounded Yoacor is the deadliest foe in the book, based on the number of times I've died to him in all these play-throughs!
This is a long, mostly linear adventure, so I don't have a TON of choices to make. The general path is:
* Shelter from the storm in the pile of stones. Don't take the Silver Rod.
* Get the Yoacor Meal before talking to the Beholder.
* Avoid the Monolith and gather Senara Meals
* I had been bypassing the Ookor Village to get the Haina blossom, but on Wednesday I started getting the Ookor Charm to help with the Shadow Reavers.
* In the chariot, shout a warning to T'ruk T'ron, then leap from the chariot.
* I switch back and forth between defending the chariots and trying to fix the bridge. Defending the chariots requires two combats, but fixing the bridge has a chance of instant death. Then I check in with T'ruk T'ron before running.
* After talking to Lorkon Ironheart, I go straight to Tolakos to avoid the ambush at Baylon's Bough.
* After getting the Lorestone, I hide in Baylon's Tomb and get the Silver Flask
* I usually continue the quest alone to have a few more sections for Curing to bring my EP score up. Either way, I hope to face the Zhenga and shoot it with an arrow.
* I use Psi-Surge on the Shadow Reavers; the CR is -6 in both sections, but I don't incur EP loss in the psychic combat section.
* I feed the Haagadar Serpent and usually climb the vent to get in to face the Villains of Sommerlund. It's less EP loss than fighting the door guards.
Based on Wednesday's trials, the Prodigy bonus for the Ookor Charm is the single biggest advantage in the adventure. It changes the Shadow Reavers from a deadly foe to a moderate challenge.
Re: skipping the Wounded Yoacor -- for a fresh start, what would you drop in favor of Divination?
* Curing - No Senara, no recovering from the hard fights.
* Weaponmastery - Losing 3 CS against CM, Villains of Sommerlund, and Vonotar the Traitor? Ouch.
* Psi-Surge - Going without this forces you to fight the CS 34 Shadow Reavers (corporeal), at CS 24.
One good thing about the Wounded Yoacor killing you -- at least that makes for a quick failed run!
Next up for me: Trying for the Fresh Start award for book 10
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Post by Honza on Jul 31, 2020 12:11:14 GMT
Next up for me: Trying for the Fresh Start award for book 10 I believe book 10 fresh run can be done with only one mandatory fight (don't tell you which  ) and just have a RNT luck to avoid Drakkarim Assault Captain at the end. About book 11 fresh run, this was literally the last award I got, after numerous attempts, and vaguely I remember I also had 1 or 2 EP left. |
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Post by Ofecks on Jul 31, 2020 17:27:00 GMT
Grats on your success, Norshire! Gotta love those dopamine hits when you're struggling with something difficult and finally get it.
There's a zero combat award for book 10, that would be my initial plan for doing a fresh-start, but I'm curious as to which combat might be required. I think you need Solaris lore-circle to stand the best chance of avoiding DAC at the end, so that limits your discipline choices.
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Post by norshire on Jul 31, 2020 17:39:13 GMT
Book 10 has two unavoidable fights for a fresh start: the Krorn pack in Cetza and the Drakkar garrison inside the gates of Torgar.
You can't avoid the Krorn pack on the Cetza route. If you go the Pirsi route and salute wrong, you could fight an Akataz instead (arguably easier if you have Psi-Surge). The Akataz could be bypassed with a higher-level Animal Control. Oh, well.
The Drakkar garrison can be bypassed if you have a higher-level Divination and a bow. Oh, well.
Yep, avoiding the Drakkar Assault-Captain is the key to getting through the book. The rest of the book is actually pretty easy if you have Weaponmastery, Curing, and Huntmastery.
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Post by Ofecks on Jul 31, 2020 17:53:16 GMT
I found my notes in another thread regarding 10/20 fresh-starts, which is somewhat related: 10 is entirely do-able without a single combat, you just need some lucky rolls. Some reeeeeally lucky rolls. To make it across the ravine to the Isle of Ghosts, to break Tagazin's amulet, to get past the Krorn, and to avoid Big Ugly Sarge at the end. I wouldn't call this one "near-impossible", just unlikely. I was wrong, and it's near-impossible! Thanks for your info. What's the Krorn fight like at -4 CS? 60 EP is quite a lot. |
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Post by norshire on Jul 31, 2020 21:34:14 GMT
Well, I took Weaponmastery, so it was only at -1 CS. With RNT guiding, it's not bad at all. I only needed 3-4 attempts to get through this book. The Assault Captain kept killing me -- just needed to try again a couple of times to avoid him.
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Post by Ofecks on Aug 1, 2020 16:51:52 GMT
That reminds me, I did a bunch of work a few years back on optimal RNT guiding. As in, which RNT section gives you the most likely favorable results for various single rolls and combats. It's on Google sheets. I'm wary about sharing it because it would have to be user-editable to be of any use (I didn't plot out every single roll). Would anyone else be interested in having this? Can you copy data from a read-only sheet to your own?
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Post by norshire on Aug 3, 2020 20:19:51 GMT
I've been doing something like this! I copy the RNT into Calc, broken up into the 9 guidable sections, and I run some counts and averages to come up with the best square to use for combat, for bow picks (and others where 0=0), and one for picks where a low roll is better.
I wouldn't have bothered until trying to play books 9, 11, and 12 as fresh starts.
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Post by Ofecks on Aug 4, 2020 15:38:33 GMT
Yeah this really helps. But it was utterly useless for a "high score" run, since Prodigy has no mode-specific awards and thus, can't be used.
In doing this I discovered there is a RNT section in book 2 that has no zeroes! Section 6. No more getting smote by falling masts. And that books 9 and 10 use the exact same RNT for some reason.
What is Calc? Some MacOS thing?
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Post by norshire on Aug 5, 2020 4:21:22 GMT
LibreOffice Calc -- open source version of Excel, basically. I've started a new run -- books 7 through 10 in hopes of taking the no-combat route through book 10. I just completed Book 8, nabbing the puzzles and max combat awards. It ended up being super easy to get all the combats; they actually aren't that challenging for a high-starting-CS LW. The +2 Broadsword from Book 7 didn't hurt, either  I had some trouble with the Vordaks in the first couple of runs, but then I paid a bit more attention in the Temple of the Sword. The *1.5 damage against Vordaks from the Monk's Sword made the two-Vordak fight much more manageable. I didn't manage the arrow or Fireseed awards, though. One of the arrows was smashed by the Helghast, so I guess it didn't count. I'm not sure what went wrong with the Fireseeds, though -- next time around, I'll take a different path. "High score" run? Do you mean for Dave's HOF page? |
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Post by Ofecks on Aug 5, 2020 15:33:36 GMT
I didn't manage the arrow or Fireseed awards, though. One of the arrows was smashed by the Helghast, so I guess it didn't count. I'm not sure what went wrong with the Fireseeds, though -- next time around, I'll take a different path. "High score" run? Do you mean for Dave's HOF page? There's a list of 10 bow targets in book 8 and you need to hit 6 of them. Some have discipline restrictions (both having and NOT having certain ones), and one little stinker that costs 2 arrows but only counts for one target. As for the fireseeds, there are 4 opportunities to use them in the book, and you need to do 3 to get the award. I can provide more details if you want. A High Score run means starting with a fresh character on book 1 with zero earned rewards and completing as many as possible in a single campaign. I haven’t fully tested it, but it appears the maximum is 68 for 1-12 on BtB rules in Seventh Sense S. To do this I spent a lot of time staring at the flowcharts and the vanilla SS source code to pinpoint exact award requirements. It might be possible to get more in vanilla SS as the high combat awards are easier to get. Most of my findings I posted in this thread on the previous page. After spending hundreds of attempts (pre-book checkpoint restarts are absolutely necessary) on the just first 3 books and revising the routes several times, I put it down and haven’t gone back to it yet. e: I also found out that to do this, you need to back up and delete any existing profiles because both versions of SS keep awards across all profiles. |
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Post by norshire on Aug 6, 2020 3:09:19 GMT
I re-ran book 8 -- took two quivers this time -- I think I hit every bow target I could in a single run, except for the one where the Helghast just smashes the arrow. Fireseed opportunities include: throwing one over the bar at the offended tavern-keeper after he tries to throw you out (also a bow opportunity), then tossing one at the Xlorg (rats, it just bounces off) -- or throwing one to scare the Rahgu (HUGE explosion and permanent CS loss, ouch), one to kill the "red fruit" that tries to eat you if you pick it, and then either before or after fighting the Ghagrim (there's a nice option where you shoot two Ghagrim with arrows, then fight one, then STILL get to throw a Fireseed ). I really wish SS and SSS had separate paths for profiles. It's awkward the way they interfere with each other :\ |
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) and just have a RNT luck to avoid Drakkarim Assault Captain at the end.