SPOILER FILLED discussion on The Dusk of Eternal Night

[lorddarkstorm]

Last chance to go back, I don't recommend reading this thread until you've finished Dusk of Eternal Night.

































So I just finished it. I loved it. Only negative was that there were too few choices, at times it felt more of a novel then a gamebook - I'm not complaining because I loved the prose, I just would have enjoyed more interactivity at certain times. I get that we had the three separate paths, but that was quite deep in, or at least felt that way.
Talking to a couple of shipmates before going to sleep was cool - reminded me of playing Japanese RPGs a bit. The moment the Grand Master ascended was great too.
The art was superb. I LOVED the 2 illustrations we saw of Agarash, I wonder if it was by choice that both him and Vashna were obscured when we saw them with full on looks saved for the finale in Light of the Kai.

And that epilogue...I remember some years back when I asked whether the final champion of Naar would be Vashna, Agarash or Vonotar. Didn't expect the answer to be "yes, all three" lol (assuming Vonotar is who that tease is for). Though of course we're unsure if Vonotar will be on Naar's side or his own...

I have only done the Scaldar's Rest route thus far.

[andyc]

Agree with you on pretty much all the points you made. Perhaps for me the lack of choices only became obvious for the final bit in Lorn and to a lesser extent the Night Spire. I took the Bhanarian route which was great fun and seemed to have quite a few ways to approach it.

So many retuning bad guys and old friends! Unbelievable that in a single book we meet Vashna, see off Sesketera at long last, ....not going to spoil the Bhanar route..., face the Wytch-King, and see the return of Agarash. Oh, and probably Vonotar too. I'm guessing that we haven't seen the last of Shasarak, as he was pointedly not killed off. Probably a rumble in the Pit of Eternal Pain to get back Blazer hopefully.

I agree the prose made for very enjoyable reading. You could tell Vincent knows his Lore better than anyone and was desperate to link everything together. He achieved it wonderfully. My only concern with the final book The Light of the Kai is how the Hell they will be able to bind a 551 section book together, when a 350 section one is this thick already.

[lorddarkstorm]

Yeah, the book size will be an interesting one, this book is so heavy the glue seems to struggle to keep it bound to the spine lol.

Another thought, New Order GM is now a canon Supreme Master. So for the final book you will have presumably have all GM disciplines available to you even if you haven't gone through from 21. Wonder how this will be handled from a choice point of view? Will "do you have discipline x?" turn into a choice between disciplines with some being a "bad" choice"? Or will we graduate to "Supreme" disciplines - we know Lone Wolf knows "Supreme Weaponcraft" for instance - and have to choose some?

I wonder too if we will play the whole book as the New Order GM or if it will be split, and we will play as Lone Wolf again for some parts. Though that may be too complex with character stats and so forth, so probably not.

[andyc]

Hmm. Yes interesting. They would surely have to go with a selection of right and wrong disciplines to use. What with that and finally a balancing of the stats, they will have far more control over the difficulty of the last book. Now I am a bit worried that I dropped my CS to effectively have rolled a 0 at the start (so as to not steamroll Dusk like I did DITD).

[lonewolf10x29]

Anything interesting happened? The name of the conspiracy/cult? Leaders? Antagonists? Major deaths/plot twists?

[andyc]

It has some very significant events. Don't spoil it for yourself here, the book does a far better job of revealing them than we can!

[lonewolf10x29]

So I have to buy it, ok!!

[andyc]

Dec 28, 2020 19:41:47 GMT lonewolf10x29 said:

So I have to buy it, ok!!

You won't regret that decision!

[lonewolf10x29]

Dec 28, 2020 19:52:40 GMT andyc said:

Dec 28, 2020 19:41:47 GMT lonewolf10x29 said:

So I have to buy it, ok!!

You won't regret that decision!

Have just ordered it, thanks but would still like spoilers if possible please!!

[Black Cat]

Alright, like with all new LW gamebooks, I've READ The Dusk of Eternal Night (that is, not really keeping track of EP score and skipping combats... I'll be playing it only when I get my GM through all the preceding books, as I'm waiting for the release of book 27).

It is a great gamebook. Like it was mentionned, it links almost every fiction work that was published about Magnamund: the Kai series (Madelon, Loi-Kymar), Magnakai series (the Lorestones), GM series (Tagazin and Ixiataaga), NO series (various returning characters), WoLW series (Grey Star and Shasarak, of course), bonus adventures (the four that were co-written by Vincent Lazzari), Autumn Snow series (as she is mentionned as a brand new NO GM), the Skull of Agarash and probably the two unfinished trilogies of novels, the Forge Reply video game and even the unwritten second GS series that was mentionned in the past. You get to experience a rollercoaster of emotions (the probable death of Oswin minutes after meeting him for the first time in 20 long years, Blazer's treachery, and is it me or is there a sexual tension between the GM and Oriah? ) and discover a lot of brand new lore related to the history of Magnamund.

Someone mentionned it earlier but I think we now got a good explanation to something I've noticed a decade ago: in the first edition of the series, we started book 21 with only 4 NO Disciplines and should had reached the rank of Supreme Kai Master with the mastery of only 15 of the 16 NO Disciplines. That would had meant that book 32 was to be played as a Supreme Kai Master (but with one missing NO Discipline). I was always wondering why JD made that "mistake". This was corrected on both the PA edition and the Collector's Edition as we now start with 5 NO Disciplines. In the end, we will be playing book 32 as a Supreme Kai Master but with all the Disciplines instead of only 15 of them. But during all that time, JD did planned for the reader to play book 32 as a Supreme Kai Master all along. How will it be put in practice in that book? Those who had played all the series will probably be considered as true Supreme Kai Masters and those who played only some of the books, including book 31, will probably be considered as lesser Supreme Kai Masters as they will still miss some Disciplines. For those who would had not played book 31, they will probably just be considered for the number of Disciplines they will have (my guess is that at some point during book 32, they will be promoted to Supreme Kai Mastership).

The story of this book itself is good: the part with the Heart of Agarash, the branching to explore one of the three places to gather information (I went for the Kelderwastes, but I'm planning of reading the other options too), Naaros and the final battle at the Isle of Lorn give the feeling they are all part of the same adventure. As mentionned, talking with other people aboard the skyship is interesting and help fleshing out the characters. However, the first part in Ruanon could had been skipped IMO, as it is not really linked with Agarash resurrection. A simple mention in the Story so far... could had been enough. The sections saved like that could had been used to give more choices in other parts of the book.

I love how in various situations, like in battle, they seem to break down all the possible ways your character is built (i.e.: if you have X Discipline, add X CS to your score; if you have Y Discipline, add Y CS to your score, but you can't add both, unless you've reached the rank of Z, then you can add both scores and an extra 1 point to your CS if you have the Special Item [insert name here]). They saved some sections by giving the result of the RNT you've picked directly in the same section where you are asked to pick a number (i.e.: Pick a number on the RNT. If it is 0 or 1, turn directly to section X (instant death). If it is between 2 and 5, lose Y EP. If it is 6 or over, lose Z EP). With JD, he would had used a section for each possible outcome, which I think contributed to make his latter books more linear (less sections available to explore different paths). What I would like to see in the next book, and I think it would help for the balance, is to have the sections saved this way beeing used for certain battles: for the same battle, lower ranked characters could go to a section where the enemy has a lower CS and EP score while the highest ranked characters go to another section where the enemy stats are higher. In real life, of course, enemies don't adjust to the level of your skills but since it is a gamebook, hey, why not?

Another thing that was mentionned earlier is how thick the book is. Apart from the fact that they give A LOT of information on the background lore, they also make the characters talk incredibly often. This makes the sections much longer. How many sections are 3-4 pages long? With JD, a 3-page section is pretty rare. I'm ambivalent about this: I love it, it's interesting, it fleshes out the characters but it makes the gamebook look more like a novel as someone mentionned (a gamenovel?). It also breaks the rhythm of the story IMO. It took me 7 hours to just READ it. How long will it take when I will play it? JD was able to summarize long conversation in just 3-4 sentences while here, we actually read the entire conversation. Like I said, I'm ambivalent on this: JD's way doesn't make the characters very fleshed out while VL&BD's make the book much longer. With book 32 aiming to have 551 sections, I think the authors will have to find a compromise to flesh out characters without making the story too long (and the book so thick they won't be able to release it in just one volume).

All in all, a very good addition to the series!

[andyc]

Nice review. I had got the impression that the Supreme Master in book 32 will have all disciplines and all the CS and Endurance additions that goes with the jump in GM levels, as a result the only difference between a new player or a veteran in Book 32 will be their equipment. They shouldn't need different enemy stats then, as the band of possible SM stats will be so much narrower than most of the other books. Inspired solution to a longstanding problem.
You spotted some lore connections that I missed. They really have covered it all, it's remarkable. Perhaps with some of the lore out the way, The Light of the Kai won't need to go into it in so much depth. Who am I kidding, Vincent clearly loves getting all the lore in and I'm all for it.
Oh and Oriah? Yeah, I was in there straight away ha ha. I think I got the best ending with her where she changes her mind about Vassagonia and decides to come to live with me on Lorn. My GM is a smooth cat!

[zorkraan]

Lorddarkstorm, Black Cat, andyc : thank you so much for these reviews, this year couldn't end better when I read such kind words... I'm so relieved you enjoyed it, your feedbacks really matter.

I agree with all the criticisms, they're actually all my fault, LW31 is actually too packed with lore and too much dialogs, which results in a book too thick, perhaps a bit different from what Joe himself would have made in this regard, he who was a master of concision... It is also detrimental to the interactivity, as pointed out by Lorddarkstorm, I admit the 2 last parts would have benefited from much more sections and choices - perhaps in a super extended version in the future ? I'm joking. But I'm delighted you enjoyed the plots, the twists, the structure, the returns of many characters from the previous books (sorry for what happened to Oswin...), the chats with the allies in the skyship (which are VERY important to the adventure actually). It's great each of you has tried one of the different paths - each of them contains crucial information about the LW lore and LW31's plot... and perhaps each of them could also influence the next book in some regard... but I must not tease Light of the Kai as we have a lot of work to do before releasing it as you can imagine.

As you have all guessed, there will be changes in the gameplay but I don't want to spoil anything about how you'll play in the next book. All I can say is that yes, it'll be more balanced for the reasons pointed out by andyc, and I note your suggestions and criticisms and will try to implement them if possible... It'll help to make everything fit in the book...

@black Cat: it's possible the comments on PA about the number of Grand Disciplines in the New Order series might have influenced Joe's choices for the Collector Editions ;-). I'm especially delighted you enjoyed the options offered during the battles, we tried to construct complex, rpg-influenced fights against resourceful foes.
You spotted most of the ties-in with the other LW medias, great catchs! I'll add there are also some with the various RPGs (August Hahn's work greatly influenced Naaros) and Maps of Magnamund (look at Maps 21, 23, 24 & 36...), August's most recent BAs, and the bonus adventures exclusively released for the moment in Sweden (LW8-9) and Germany (WoLW1-3). It was an absolute deligth to discuss these points with all the authors! And it also shows our creative team patiently built what would happen in LW31 during all those years with our parallel works on the BAs, maps and RPGs - in this regards, andyc, I'd like to know how you see now the BA of LW22 "A Wytch's Nightmare" ^^ ?

Oh!? You guys noticed there could be "something" with Oriah??? Well done if you found the most satisfying ending with her ;-). Have you also noticed how helping her during your chats influences the events in the book?

Anyway, thank you, thank you, thank you for your feebacks. It gives us more determination to finish the saga.

[lorddarkstorm]

Jan 1, 2021 15:13:22 GMT zorkraan said:

Lorddarkstorm, Black Cat, andyc : thank you so much for these reviews, this year couldn't end better when I read such kind words... I'm so relieved you enjoyed it, your feedbacks really matter.

I agree with all the criticisms, they're actually all my fault, LW31 is actually too packed with lore and too much dialogs, which results in a book too thick, perhaps a bit different from what Joe himself would have made in this regard, he who was a master of concision... It is also detrimental to the interactivity, as pointed out by Lorddarkstorm, I admit the 2 last parts would have benefited from much more sections and choices - perhaps in a super extended version in the future ? I'm joking. But I'm delighted you enjoyed the plots, the twists, the structure, the returns of many characters from the previous books (sorry for what happened to Oswin...), the chats with the allies in the skyship (which are VERY important to the adventure actually). It's great each of you has tried one of the different paths - each of them contains crucial information about the LW lore and LW31's plot... and perhaps each of them could also influence the next book in some regard... but I must not tease Light of the Kai as we have a lot of work to do before releasing it as you can imagine.

As you have all guessed, there will be changes in the gameplay but I don't want to spoil anything about how you'll play in the next book. All I can say is that yes, it'll be more balanced for the reasons pointed out by andyc, and I note your suggestions and criticisms and will try to implement them if possible... It'll help to make everything fit in the book...

@black Cat: it's possible the comments on PA about the number of Grand Disciplines in the New Order series might have influenced Joe's choices for the Collector Editions ;-). I'm especially delighted you enjoyed the options offered during the battles, we tried to construct complex, rpg-influenced fights against resourceful foes.
You spotted most of the ties-in with the other LW medias, great catchs! I'll add there are also some with the various RPGs (August Hahn's work greatly influenced Naaros) and Maps of Magnamund (look at Maps 21, 23, 24 & 36...), August's most recent BAs, and the bonus adventures exclusively released for the moment in Sweden (LW8-9) and Germany (WoLW1-3). It was an absolute deligth to discuss these points with all the authors! And it also shows our creative team patiently built what would happen in LW31 during all those years with our parallel works on the BAs, maps and RPGs - in this regards, andyc, I'd like to know how you see now the BA of LW22 "A Wytch's Nightmare" ^^ ?

Oh!? You guys noticed there could be "something" with Oriah??? Well done if you found the most satisfying ending with her ;-). Have you also noticed how helping her during your chats influences the events in the book?

Anyway, thank you, thank you, thank you for your feebacks. It gives us more determination to finish the saga.

Thank you & Ben for such an enjoyable book. It's been lovely to see so many story threads start to be tied up as we reach the grand finale. I will have to play through again without getting the Pearl to see what happens!

Can't wait for Light of the Kai.

[Black Cat]

Jan 1, 2021 15:13:22 GMT zorkraan said:

@black Cat: it's possible the comments on PA about the number of Grand Disciplines in the New Order series might have influenced Joe's choices for the Collector Editions ;-).

I have no doubt that it is what really happened. By creating Aon and Magnamund all by himself, it is possible that JD made mistakes or wrote things that contradict what he had written earlier. He was human after all and there is so much that he could remembered! With all the heads in the Project Aon team, it was easier to spot these contradictions and mistakes. So fixing the NO Disciplines issue is probably just one of the many things the staff at PA helped Joe with to make an even more comprehensive world.

And as for Oriah, since a Kai Lord can get married, then the NO GM should marry her... They will have kids and then we could have the New New Order series, the sequel to the NO series! The series will continue past book 32!

[zorkraan]

Jan 1, 2021 18:26:08 GMT Black Cat said:

I have no doubt that it is what really happened. By creating Aon and Magnamund all by himself, it is possible that JD made mistakes or wrote things that contradict what he had written earlier. He was human after all and there is so much that he could remembered! With all the heads in the Project Aon team, it was easier to spot these contradictions and mistakes. So fixing the NO Disciplines issue is probably just one of the many things the staff at PA helped Joe with to make an even more comprehensive world.

I confirm PA team helped him so much!! And definitely yes concerning the number of NO disciplines.

Jan 1, 2021 18:26:08 GMT Black Cat said:

And as for Oriah, since a Kai Lord can get married, then the NO GM should marry her... They will have kids and then we could have the New New Order series, the sequel to the NO series! The series will continue past book 32!

Hahaha! But we won't name it "The Young Jed... Kai Lords"...