|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 23, 2010 22:23:29 GMT
Thematically the disciplines needed to complete the Lorecircles are fine as they are: Fire=Warrior, Light=Pacifist, Solaris=Survivalist, Spirit=Psychic. Altering the themes by adding and dropping disciplines from different Circles would create too much havoc trying to balance them out with whatever themes would be created, so I say that part doesn't need any tinkering.
However, the Lorcircles do play an integral part in playing the Magnakai series, and the bonuses they give to CS and EP further increase the value of some disciplines over others. IE- even if somebody doesn't use Psi-Surge due to the -2 EP/Round, or care about Psi-Screen since it only saves an EP here and there, these two are stampeded towards due to Spirit's +3 CS. I think it's been said that if you don't change some of the "boss fights" that there's little point in balancing individual disciplines, but I think if we tinker with some of the benefits of completing the Lorecircles it would go a long way to balance the whole. With that in mind, along with some of the other suggestions, I'd like to suggest this attempt ar balancing them:
Circle of Fire (Weaponmastery & Huntmastery) +2 CS, +2 EP Completing this Lorecircle grants a power-attack ability. Once per combat, a Kai can use their advanced knowledge of battle tactics and hieghtened reflexes to lower their CS by two for a single round to deal an extra 5 points of damage during that round.
Circle of Light (Animal Control & Curing) +0 CS, +4 EP Completing this Lorecircle grants a coup-de-grace ability. Using their hightened knowledge of anatomy of various creatures, a Kai can choose to deal no damage on the first round of combat in order to gain a +2 CS bonus in the second round. This ability can only be used once per combat and cannot be used in a combat where the Kai is caught off-guard.
Circle of Solaris (Invisibility, Huntmastery & Pathsmanship) +1 CS, +3 EP Completing this Lorecircle grants an evasive-charge ability. Using their highetened speed, knowledge of terrain, and arts of deception, a Kai can choose to lower their CS by two in order to recieve no damage in a single round, once per combat.
Circle of the Spirit (Psi-surge, Psi-screen, Nexus & Divination) +2 CS, +2 EP Completing this Lorecircle grants a psychic-pool ability. Using their hightened psychic abilities, a Kai can use Psi-surge with no EP loss for a single round once per combat.
Any opinions/ideas?
|
|
|
Post by egleris on Aug 23, 2010 23:42:21 GMT
...you totally failed to see my point, isn't it? My bad, evidently I didn't make it clear. I'll try again; let's see if I can do any better. First of all, this is the Combat Result Table I'll be using for reference: www.projectaon.org/test/en/xhtml/lw/24rw/crtable.htmSo, let's analyze your modifies first. You weakened the SP, the one harder to gain (as you need to commit 4 disciplines to it) and make it as strong as the F, the easier to gain (just two, one of which is the best Discipline of the bunch, Weapon Mastery). The L gain 1 END (that means nothing) and S stay as is. Basically, you nerfed the 4 Discipline SP, making it less important than the F one, that was top pick already, as the normal progression right now already wanted to have both F and SP completed for LW9, as you needed the weaponmastery bonus anyway against Khima, and so the first six picks where always the same. But, you also added some bonus for completed LC others than CS and END. Let's see: LC F: -2 CS but +5 damage for 1 round - +5 damage is about as good as having a +10 CS. You still take the same damage, yes, but the enemy is going to cry; if it add also when you inflict 0 damage is even crazier. Let's remember: LC F, two disciplines only. Also, I would add that, in a discussion about how to make the Sommerswerd more resonable, Zipp suggested to make it a +4 damage instead of a +8 CS, as it would have inflicted the same damage but you would have taken more and so risked more. As so, +5 is a bigger bonus than the one the Sommerswerd give you. All this considered, I would give a 10 of usefulness to this ability. Yes, you're not going to choose something else if you can have this one. LC S: -2 CS, 0 damage subited for one round - depending on wheter or not that ability apply also to insta-kill, it could be valued from 7 to 8. It's very good, I grant that, specialy against boss, but it can't hold a candle to the bonus of LC F. LC L: +2 CS second round, 0 damage the first round - worth a 6, mainly because you can't choose when to apply it, which you could with the previous two. If I could choose when to add the CS, it would be a lot better, because remember: as they are structured right now, those two bonus can be used right when your roll would produce the best result, while this one is forced, even if you rolled 9 the first roll and 1 the second. And I know, in that case you could decide not to use it... but the other two, you could use the LC F the first round, or the LC S the second round. This is sub par. LC SP: so, you're using Psi-Surge; one round, you don't lose 2 END. One. Round. Let's be clear on this; the tradeoff of psy-surge is so bad that you use it in the magnakai series only when you can't avoid it; in those fights, you would not even notice that you spared 2 END. Ok, this would also allow you to use it once every combat with no loss; I agree, it make Psi-Surge marginally more useful. Still not even close to what you can do with the LC F. About as good as the LC L, but only barely; only, the LC L is two disciplines. The LC SP is four. And this is the value I give this "bonus": 4. So, the LC SP is nerfed, the LC L stay as it is, the LC S is slightly better (because of his bonus) and the LC F is... invaluable. So, instead of people running for the LC SP, they would ALWAYS take the LC F in book 6 (only an idiot wouldn't), then complete S at the start of book 7 (save yourself from one full turn of damage, the turn where you roll 1, is worth more than 1 CS), and from there go Psi-Surge, Nexus, Psi-Screen, and Divination, completing the third CS boosting LC by the start of book 11, just in time for the Chaos Master. So, basically, people would do the same thing they do now, that is, selecting one pre-determined list of discipline in roughly the same order, leaving the LC L discipline as last. So, the point of balancing the discipline - that is, the way I understant it, to give EVERY discipline abut the same chance to be choosen - would be moot again. With my sistem, you would have had to choose; you would not have all three of the CS boosting LC, you could only have two, so you had to choose which one. And that choice was also tactical; certain are stronger than other, yes, but the stronger ones are also the ones you have to wait more to have. Let's remember that they gave all about the same CS bonus you got with all three now, so it wasn't making you any stronger. Also, the one LC that didn't boosted CS, the LC L, had all three of his disciplines in common with one of the others; making it a lot more easy to decide of completing it at some point. That was the reason behind my suggestion, and it make selecting the discipline a process requiring more thought and planning, and making even the less interesting disciplines important by them being part of a lorecircle you want.
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 24, 2010 0:07:38 GMT
Actually, combos abound. By book 9, one could have Light, Fire, and Solaris- Use Light and Solaris in first round- no damage either way. With light's bonus active, Fire's ability would drop it back to normal CS- so at your current CS you deal +5 damage. Also, by book 11, one could have Spirit, Solaris, and Light. Combo starts the same as above, but then you get a a round where you get a +6 CS (+8 in book 12) with no EP loss from using Psi-surge.
Further, there are extra bonuses from the individual Disciplines that come into play, as some of the greater ones may be getting less of one, and others will be boosted to even all things out. It's a start at balancing them as a whole, since the CS bonus gained from Weaponmastery will probably be reduced (thus making Fire look less attractive), and others increased (such as the proposed addition to combat rolls with Invisibility, or CS boost with Animal Control making both Light and Solaris more attractive).
Take Curing, for instance, increased knowledge of herbalism and alchemy could give potions a boost at higher levels, conferring a +1 bonus to any potion drank (Regular Laumspur restoring 5 EP, regular Alether conferring a +3 CS bonus). At higher levels this could be increased to a +2 bonus to potion consumption. This is just for illustrative purposes, but taking in consideration that some skills (like Psi-surge) may or may not be altered, such a set up may make it easer to balance the disciplines individually.
|
|
|
Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 0:27:58 GMT
... I'm at a loss. I tryed to make my point, but failed.
It won't matter that you can combine the Light and Solaris bonus, the one of Fire is too good to pass for anything. Weakening weaponsmastery would mean nothing, people would take it just for the lorecircle.
Also, you're suggesting to modify every discipline to mantain this LC setup you're proposing, but that's missing the point. We want all the discipline to be equally interesting and have the same chance to be choosen. That we're trying to accomplish by making the less interesting ones more appealing, and it would also be accomplished, ideally, by making the selection of the Lorecircles secondary, while now it's the deciding factor. You're suggesting exactly the opposite, making the lorecircles even more important and then altering the disciplines to balance this. It makes no sense.
By expanding the lorecircles, I'm including Curing into the LC of Fire and Animal Control in that of Solaris, making them needed if you want that LC completed; and at the same time, I'm adding Psi-Surge to Light, so that you could have a good reason to go there from the LC Spirit.
Yes, the total boost my version offer is quite higher than the one we can have now, but that's willing refusal to see that you CAN'T have it, as to reach that max CS boost you would need all 10 disciplines. So, the actual max is 5 or 6, the same as the 5 we got now, only distributed so that no LC is dominating.
The purpose is to add replayability (as you can choose a different combination next time while mantaining an equal-similar CS bonus), making all disciplines interesting as now ALL of them are in a LC that boost CS, so none is regularly shunned, all while not making the books any harder and mantaining the LC as just an intersting improvement to gameplay, not the defining feature that determine everything.
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 24, 2010 0:40:22 GMT
Not every discipline or Lorecircle will be altered. Ideas will be picked up, others will be disregarded. But, judging by the priorities stated by others, some disciplines are definitely more desirable individually, and throw the others in a lengthy shadow. I'm not in charge of this project, so I'm just casting my opinions for approval or dismissal.
Anyways- I believe it's obvious that Weaponmastery is overpowered just like it's predecessor. I'd like to suggest making it stackable with Weaponskill, but only confer a +1 bonus (+2 at Scion-kai). This would make one weapon at +2 (+3 at Scion-kai), and all others selected at the +1/+2 bonus.
|
|
|
Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 0:53:01 GMT
That's interesting, reducing Weaponmastery to +2 but making it stackable with Weaponskill. Though lowering it to +1 seems really too much... remember, Khima is still there, as is the Chaos Master. Lowering the more important bonuses too much would make them invincible. I say it could be lowered at +2, but when you reach Scion-Kai it should still go to +4... remaining stackable.
And please do not tell me you can get to those two with a good Combat Ratio while rolling a 9, I would like to see even those with a bit less CS surviving the fight.
For that purpose, both the Curing and the Invisibility bonus would help, as the Animal Control if applicable... making these three discipline far more interesting picks.
What about scaling the Psi-Surge evolution? Like, instead of it going from +4 CS -2 to +6 CS -1 as Archmaster, we have it pass to +4 CS -1 at Principalin or Mentore. That would make it better.
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 24, 2010 1:22:41 GMT
Exactly why it's stackable- I figure if you're trained to excel in a weapon, then you'd get a better edge with that one weapon. Also, diversifying which weapons you're more skilled in, you'd only start at the level of mastery you originally had with your focus (why it's at a +1). Further, things even out at the Kimah/Chaos Master battles with the other bonuses from other disciplines, even at a +2 (+3 with one weapon) at Scion-Kai: Invisibility possibly boosting the combat rolls, though Kimah isn't near woodlands in a burning city, the Chaos Master is right in the middle of some in that graveyard (another +1 or +2). Also, the proposed increased CS from Fire would help to give an edge while not playing through the books in God Mode. Different combos to solve different problems.
I agree Psi-surge's evolution might need a little tweaking, though I think the inverse should happen: +4 -2 (Superior), +6 -2 (Principalin or Mentora), +6 -1 (Archmaster). The extra 2 CS creates a bit more temptation to drain the EP for a few more rounds, plus makes the potential one-round no EP loss of Spirit a bit more functional.
|
|
|
Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 1:37:13 GMT
We love our ideas for the lorecircles far too much... we'll probably continue to fight over them. I say, our suggestion are there now, I'll let pi4t decide which one he think would help more whit the balance, and work from there.
The fun thing is, I'm liking your suggestions for the disciplines! You're probably right, having it go from +4 CS -2 to, +6 CS -2 at, let's say Mentora, and then going to +6 CS -1 as Archmaster is better than what I suggested before.
Question: does the bonus offered by the powered up version of the LC of Fire I proposed would make book 11 easier for those playing it as a standalone, or not?
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 24, 2010 1:41:51 GMT
Like I said, I'm just casting my opinions for approval or dismissal. Besides, the arguing/debating helps formulate new ideas which may work better Answer: It does, but it also causes the potential for God Mode in the earlier books. Like I said earlier, as a stand-alone, the major threat is the Villains of Sommerlund fight. A creative combo would help out balance it for earlier books, but make that a bit more possible.
|
|
|
Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 1:47:47 GMT
True. Say, exactly which bonus does a starting player have against the Chaos Master in LW 11 other than the ones from the Ironheart Broadsword, Weaponmastery and Psi-Surge?
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 24, 2010 1:52:12 GMT
Thats it- no Alether or Adgana. Just Lorecircle bonuses and those skills. The tweaked Animal Control would help with the CM, but not the Villains. *EDIT* then again, the original idea would need you to complete three books for that to work. If invisibility boosted rolls, then that would help immeasurably for both fights, even at a starting +1. The proposed abilities for Lorecircles would help- you can complete three of them in a single book, thus adding a bit to survivability with which one you choose to complete. Light's one-round bonus could be upped a little (maybe a +4) since you would be doing no damage the round prior. So an invisibility, curing, animal control starting combo could enable a decent boost for a round of damage. As could a weaponmastery, huntmastery, invisibility combo for +5 damage in a round, or negating all damage received with Solaris (since you'd be at -11 with the villains anyways, the -2 CS doesn't matter). This is just with proposed stuff, but it increases survivability a bit.
|
|
|
Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 2:02:55 GMT
Taking the full LC of Fire (my version) would mean relishing Psi-Surge, so instead of the +7 from those you would got a +6, but without losing 2 END at every round (this with the Weaponmastery at +3)... and our version of curing, even at starting, allow to heal of 5 END midbattle. With my LC of Light it would still be a +6 with the AC bonus, but with the drain, but you'll also have 3 END more and the Curing mid-battle bonus.
This seems to suggest we should let the CS bonus of Weaponmastery at 3, and that the Invisibility suggested +1 to rolls may be more useful as being implemented from the start, with only the +2 being an improvement, instead of both the +1 and the +2.
Other than this... maybe Huntmastery could reduce damage received in battle by 1 per round? Or Nexus? What do everybody think?
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 24, 2010 2:32:12 GMT
Balance-wise, Huntmastery can complete two circles, plus always helps in a pinch such as a surprise attack, plus rolls for athletics. It is a fairly versatile skill without going overboard- as an average starting ability, it's got its ups and downs and seems fairly balanced. Nexus is way too sweet a pick with all its uses as-is, so boosting it makes little sense when thinking of game balance (blocking environmental damage, plus picking locks, etc- it's above-average as a starting ability)
Pathsmanship's major boost doesn't come into play until you've completed a couple books- ambush detection. As a starting ability, it's rather sub-par. Plus, an enhanced awareness of your surroundings would logically state you know where to duck for cover, so a -1 damage received makes a bit more sense for this discipline, logically and for the sake of balance. Though I still say an auto-kill is an auto-kill in this scenario.
|
|
|
Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 2:49:06 GMT
You may be right, Huntsmastery and Nexus are not the ones that need improvement. I left myself be sidetracked there.
Though, if I had to choose, I would then say to apply the -1 Damage make more sense for Divination than for Pathsmanship. Yes, the instant kill should remain an instant kill, but this would make Divination more useful, as it's not that much right now... make more sense than using Pathsmanship, anyway, and Pathsmanship is better than Divination right now.
Also, I have a suggestion to make it easier for those that want to play book 11 as a standalone. It's very, very easy to implement.
Add a potion of Concentrated Alether (yes, the one by +4 CS) in the equipment section. The old player can't take it, and whoever play it as a standalone will almost certainly need to use it before the book ends.
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 24, 2010 8:54:54 GMT
Yeah, you can't select equipment from that book's rule section if you played 10 or earlier. However, I'd lean towards either a Potion of Alether (+2 CS), or Adgana (+6 CS, possible addiction) over the Potion of Distilled Alether (+4 CS), since it's an ultra-rare find (only one in the entire series, where you can find several regular Alether potions and a couple pouches of Adgana in the series making them more common). Fortunately, being the only book that needs some major stand-alone balancing, the inability to pick any equipment at the beginning if you played ANY earlier book does come in handy for balancing. Considering how tough the Villains fight is, and the fact the Story So Far section describes the battle at Torgar, I'm leaning towards the Adgana, since it could easily be explained as being found on a Drakkar during the assault ( Found on the body of a fell Drakkar during the siege of Torgar, Adgana is shunned by most professional warriors and its use is outlawed in the Lastlands because it is highly addictive...), and provides a reason not to use it with its addictive properties (damned if you do, damned if you don't). If you use it at the CM battle you might be addicted and still have a few battles to go, or if you use it at the Villains fight, you still have Vonotar to deal with and have a possible addiction hindering you.
|
|