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Post by pi4t on Aug 24, 2010 14:59:26 GMT
Right. Sorry I haven't been posting, I've been ill and not felt up to thinking about this!
So, Lore Circles. I can see where you're both coming from here. Now, I'm not sure that boosting the CS bonus they give is such a bad thing. In fact, I've seen a couple of complaints: that CS gets lowered by the change to weaponmastery, and raised by the change to the LCs. I think that since we'll have reduced the CS bonus by 2 due to the weaponskill/mastery edits (and I like the stackable idea, Kamikaze), we can safely increase the LC bonuses a bit to balance out.
I like the ideas with the special abilities, specially since the book occasionally asks you if you have a specific lore circle, like it does with disciplines. Perhaps making them into full blown disciplines would be helpful. This would give them abilities in combat, and effectively make them bonus disciplines. The ones that need more or worse disciplines would of course be more powerful. Here's my suggestions:
Fire: Obtaining this Lorecircle will hone your speed and reactions considerably. This means that you will never suffer a CS penalty due to being surprised, and may add 2 CS. When you obtain your third Lorecircle [upgraded Lorecircles!] you may add another 1 CS.
Light: This Lorecircle will not teach you to fight in combat, however it will give you an extra 5 Endurance, and more importantly when you have 2 Lorecircles it will enable you to heal yourself in an emergency, to a level far beyond that of just Curing. At any time, including in the middle of combat, you may restore 20 Endurance. This may only be used once every five books. [Of course, this replaces the Archmaster Curing bonus, and increases the temptation to get the Circle of Light]
Solaris: I have no idea on this one, but I think it should be something that works only in the wild in Magnamund, or, later on, in human settlements (this should provide a bonus against Kimah, but not the CM, as he's not in Magnamund)
Spirit: This Lorecircle is associated with the mind and Disciplines involving it. It will double your Mindblast and Psi-Surge bonuses, and when you possess 3 Lorecircles, will let you strike your enemy with a Psi-Blast [better names welcome!], which will deal 10 damage. However, it has a cost. The first time you use it, you must lose 2 Endurance points as it tires you. The second time you must lose 4, then 6, then 8, etc as the uses slowly tire you and drain your mind of the ability to use it as easily. Thus its uses should be kept for emergencies [this should prevent too much overpowering in the GM series]
I've tried to make the Lorecircle of Light more appealing by putting the archmaster Curing bonus, which I've often heard people say would make the CM battle much easier, into it. It can, notice, be used against either ZK or the CM, but not both. But is it overpowered?
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Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 16:03:18 GMT
I liked the Adgana suggestion. I mainly suggested another Kalte Alether just because the mere +2 CS of a normal one wasn't going to cut it. The +6 of the Adgana would be perfect, even whit the added risks.
As for the LC, I have nothing against them giving as special bonus as long as these bonus are about the same value and doesn't have an impact on the gameplay so strong that you'll select for the lorecircle instead than for the disciplines. What I'm more interested in is having the Lorecircles expanded.
It's really the more important thing to do: it won't matter how much each one boost or what are one powers, unless it's impossible to do it, everybody will do as they do now, selecting the same string of disciplines to optimize the boost. My version make that impossible, making every couple of two LC as strong as three are now, but also make the third unreachable, and the more powerful combination are harder to get at.
It won't matter to me if it's not the same combination of my suggestion; what we need is to have Fire, Solaris and Spirit impossible to take all together. Otherwise, like altwren said, the order of picking will always be the same for everybody.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 24, 2010 19:45:12 GMT
My method, Light gave its own big benefit, ie Archmaster Curing. I've often heard people say that the CM battle would be much easier if they had Archmaster Curing, and now, at the cost of one of the CS boosting Lorecircles, they can. Isn't that worth 1-2 CS?
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Post by egleris on Aug 24, 2010 22:02:55 GMT
Well... the point is, I could agree on principle with the idea of giving added bonus to the LC.
But your suggestion is missing the CS and END bonus for each Lorecircles... does that mean I have to treat them as the original ones from the book (Namely, SP being +3 CS +3 END, L being +0 CS +3 END, etc)? It seems not... I'll try to get them right.
If so, let's analyze the bonuses.
The LC S has no bonus as of now, so since the others have, this is nerfed. But, being that you're supposing to implement one later that it's on par with the other ones, I'll abstain from judging it for now.
The LC F one, if I'm right, give you +2 CS, with an added +1 if you got to at least... six disciplines, by completing it with Solaris and Light. That seems a good enough bonus.
The LC L give you the healing +20, but since the book are six in total, you can only use it once in all the magnakai Series (you could have more easily worded it like that). Very useful to survive the Chaos Master bonus. It also give you +5 END, that is good enough.
The LC SP gives you no CS or END bonus, but it... double the Mindblast bonus. Is that the Mindblast we're carrying on from the Kai series, that was +1 CS? It would go to 2... irrelevant. But, it would also double the Psi-Surge bonus... no doubling of the damage, right? That means a +8 CS at the cost of -2 END x round. However it compensate the lost +3 CS +3 END of the lorecircles, so it's not really powering it up, just exchanging one bonus or the other. I'm ok with this. Then we have the Mind Bomb (or psi blast or wathever). -20 END to your enemy for -6 END is by far a bonus everybody would have. I'm not against the LC SP being the strongest... but this is far too much. People will always want to pick this circle, and unless the Solaris is comparable, it would repeat the same problem: a block of disciplines being favoured above the others.
This is the main reason why I think that specific LC bonus are not a very good idea: it's too hard to balance them right, and they also require manipulating-modifying the discipline more than needed.
I'll so say that the best thing we can do with the LC is to balance them working with:
Composition (which disciplines go in wich circle; nothing say we need to have the LC F with huntmastery in it, etc.)
Number (as I explained before, having a combination that make it impossible to have the F+S+SP combo is the REAL thing we need to do.)
CS and END boost (they must be composed so that any combination of LC you can obtain has about the same value, with just slight differences; this is the most important point. The slight differencies are meant to make the choice of different disciplines meaningful, while not giving any combo an overwhelming advantage.)
This is all I think need to be done to make it so that the LC allow the player to choose her/his disciplines freely; the LC are NOT our target, they are just an addendum. Our target is making the discipline have all a similar value, and this is my best suggestion of how.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 25, 2010 12:43:58 GMT
The bonuses replace the standard CS bonuses. Bear that in mind. The Lore Circles' powers can be used in the GM series, that was why I said every 5 books, not once in the series. I've decided to change the rules for Spirit, probably to a boost to damage when using Psi Surge. The idea of the Mind Bomb (like the name, BTW, will probably call it that, although I doubt LW knows what a bomb is) was that it was a sort of early equivalent of a Kai-Blast/Ray. The rules make it so that as you use it more often it costs more, from 2 the first time, to 4, 6, 8 and it very quickly becomes useless. And it only deals 10 damage!
Anyone got any ideas for Solaris?
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Post by egleris on Aug 25, 2010 13:32:27 GMT
Wasn't there some kind of bomb in LW 10?
Anyway, the Mind Bomb is still too powerful. As I said, losing 6 END to inflict 20 to the opponent (that's two uses) is simply crazy. Even just once in five books is far too powerful; you only need it in book 11. Mixed with the +20 from Light, you could even use it three times... it would turn the Chaos Master in a cakewalk.
Giving Solaris a very good bonus that could compete with SP - say, reducing all damage you take by 3 - would make it so that people woul still follow the trend as it's now; taking the disciplines in the specific order that boosts the lorecircles. If we don't make Solaris as good as SP, then people will shun it to take Light instead, but the core of the matter will remain the same: people taking the same disciplines in the same order. We would want to change that if we want the disciplines balanced.
Also, if these boost are applicable in the GM series, than the veteran player would become invincible. Mind Bomb is far more powerful than Kai Blast, the doubled Psi-Surge at max power would be a +12 CS -1 END per round, far stronger than Kai-Surge, the LC of Light would make Deliverance totally pointless, and so on... they would imbalance the series so much is not even funny.
As interesting as it is, I have to say the bonus idea is far too hard to balance. Going the way of adding disciplines and playing with the CS bonus seems to me like a far simpler and better option.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 25, 2010 13:50:19 GMT
It was a Crystal Explosive. Ok, shall we say 4 for the first use, 8 for the second, etc?
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 25, 2010 22:21:51 GMT
Balancing Mind Bomb out, if this is taken into consideration, then perhaps follow the same rules, but only pick one random number instead of two, at the cost of 2 EP. Since that's the same cost as Psi-Surge for most of the series and you can't use it in conjunction with another psychic attack, it makes it a balanced decision. Could say RND+1 to deal 1-10 DMG to make it more tempting. Also, a qualifier like can't be used if EP is less than 6 might help.
Solaris has abilities that can be used anywhere- Invisibilty, Huntmastery, and Pathmanship. Although themed to be a survivalist, it boils down to being able to blend in regardless of surroundings, increased speed and reflexes, and better awareness of your surroundings and minor details pertaining to them. It's a fairly potent mix thematically, regardless if it's in-town, a desert, or woodlands. Boiled down to that, these three could potentially unlock some "Matrix-type" maneuvers in battle when combined: Invisibility can blur an outline temporarily, Huntmastery can help you duck and dodge like a champ, Pathsmanship can help you notice the best places for cover within a split second of entering an area. How about 1st round of combat, receive half damage (rounded down). The number of rounds at 1/2 damage increases by one for each Lore-Circle completed, other than Solaris. (2 Circles=2 Rounds, 3 Circles=3 Rounds). If an enemy scores a K against you during a half-damage round, you instead receive 8 damage. This also balances out the abilities within the Circles themselves- 2 offensive, 2 defensive.
If half damage seems a bit too strong, we can try for a -1 damage received during each round of combat. At two circles completed, an enemy would deal 11 damage if it scores a K. At three circles completed it could be -2 damage (10 damage if K is scored)
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Post by egleris on Aug 26, 2010 11:47:57 GMT
These bonus are more limited, yes, though I still feel that going the way of the bonus is wrong.
In example, as it is now, the max CS bonus you can have is 3, when you have the LC of F and other two LC.
The Solaris bonus is the -1 damage (half damage too powerful), that upgrades to -2 if you have three LC.
The LC L bonus is the special 20 Healing usable anywhen, only active if you have tree LC. (Sensing a pattern?)
The LC SP bonus is the Mindbomb (reduce to be 1 die, not that important) and the doubled Psi-Surge (+8 CS, -2 END, improve at book 12).
LC SP + LC F = CS +10 when using Psi-Surge, with mind bomb usable when Psi-Surge don't work (like with Khima).
These will be the first two one want. Because you know it's true.
After that Solaris and Light do are balanced. Going with either give you the same kind of advantage (reduced damage) usable in book 11. Light is probably more attractive if you have high CS, while Solaris is better if you have low CS as it remove the instant-kills.
So, this setup put Invisibility, Pathsmanship, Curing and Animal Control all on the same level. But the other six, the ones that are always picked first... remain the ones to be picked first. Until start of book 10, the selection will still feel forced.
I know why we're liking the idea of the bonus; it's easy to see. They add variety to the gameplay.
But all the bonuses we discussed we could easily implement in the disciplines themselves, while using an outlook like the one I suggested, for the LC. In it you can't take all three CS boosting LC, but there's just a difference in flavor in all the different combinations of two of them you can take. This difference in flavor can be increase or decreased at will by playing with the END and CS bonuses, until we feel that the choice are different enough to make every combination interesting, while not different enough that one is far better than the rest.
This is my main reason for not wanting the LC bonuses; what they add (more varied gameplay) could be used to make the disciplines more interesting, while what we need (balanced discipline and equal probability of choice) can be obtained by easier, simpler, means.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 26, 2010 11:55:03 GMT
Perhaps it only harms 'psychically active' enemies: ie enemies that are injured by Psi Surge. Anything able to resist Psi-Surge is too strong to be harmed by this. And I think it should cost more, as it is it's as good a damage:cost ratio as Kai Blast. Perhaps making it cost 4, and not be useable with an E below 10 would be better.
I was thinking of using your surroundings a bit more. That way it could give, as I've said, a bonus in wilderness, and later on in towns and cities as well. That would make it useful against ZK, but useless against the CM. The question is, what would this bonus be? And yes, I like the concept of it being defensive, but it needs to have a cost to its use. You can see that the others have this:
Spirit, obviously, costs 2 or 4 Endurance, whichever we decide. Using Light's ability has the cost of being unable to use it again for 5 books. Fire doesn't have a cost, but its ability is quite minor. It's the equivalent of a passive skill in an RPG.
Incidentally, what do you think of Light increasing the instant heal I think we agreed Curing would give during combat from 5 to, say, 7?
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Post by egleris on Aug 26, 2010 17:44:15 GMT
Sigh... I still think that we'll do better to transfer this lot of brilliant ideas to the single disciplines and limit ourselves to revise the lorecircles in the way of composition and CS/END bonuses.
Hoever, in merit to the Mind Bomb, if we're leaving it, it make only sense to have it be more powerful than Psi-Surge; as long as it can't be used when you're also using Psi-Surge, it's a valid thing because, being 1d10, it's still a risk; it could as easily come out a 0 or a 1, so you're doing less damage to the enemy then the one you're taking.
This risk factor is also the reason why I don't think it should be made more costly; the risk is acceptable as long as there are only three result lower than what you pay, but if the chance is a 50%, nobody would take it and this would make it unuseful.
If I have to try and balance the LC with this approach of the bonuses, the ones of Light, Solaris (reduced damage by 1 and then 2, as long as it doesn't influence the Invisibility one but instead work alongside it), and yes, even Spirit, are balanced among themselves, whit the SP one being stronger, yes, but also needing four disciplines.
The one I think should get changed is the LC F; also, in my book, a passive bonus that always apply is far better than an active one you can only use once.
So, going the way of the bonuses, that I still think is not the right way to go, I would make the bonus similar to the one from Spirit... if you can use it only once a book, and not when using any psichic attack (to prevent from combining it with Mind Bomb). Let's call it Great Strike; you can inflict 1d10+2 of damage on a sinlge enemy, but at a -4 END cost and only once a book. The cost will be reduced to -1 with three LC, so that one has a good reason to get Fire, Solaris and Light instead of choosing the standard combo of F+SP. Or we could make it an ability that increase your CS by 1 for every 4 END you pay before combat, and the price becoming 2 END when you have 3 lorecircles. (Still usable only once a book, obviously).
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 26, 2010 21:51:06 GMT
Spirit's bonus to Psi-surge- I think the bonus should make it go from +4 CS to +6 CS as opposed to doubling it. This would mean the archmaster improvement in Book 12 would only lower the cost from 2 EP to 1. Doubling it makes it just as powerful as Kai-surge, and will create havoc when it comes to balancing the GM disciplines. Making this bonus active after two Lorecircles are completed helps balance it out. The 1d10+1 would work for Mind Bomb, though maybe at a -2 EP, usable in any combat but not in conjunction with other psychic attacks (sacrifice an extra couple CS for a chance at more damage) makes it attractive and balanced- don't want to punish people too much for it.
Another variant for Mind Bomb could make it a 2d10 roll for damage before combat starts at -4 EP, useable only once every two books.
Light's +20 EP recovery would work as long as it's spaced out (starting at once every 5 books, then once every 3 when three circles are completed). Bearing in mind the GM ability of Deliverance being able to be used once in every book, seems a bit more balanced.
Solaris could start off to just simply negate auto-kills by enemies in combat- hitting LW up for say 12 damage (still would take a miracle or decent stategy to survive) at three circles competed we could do the -1 damage. Using an Evasive-Roll like this could be further resticted, say it can only be used for one combat per book, and that combat is fought at -2 CS?
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Post by pi4t on Aug 27, 2010 19:24:07 GMT
I don't like this idea, it's too underpowered. It's very rare you fight a battle with an instant kill. The other part's better, though.
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 27, 2010 22:49:21 GMT
Could do a split-the-difference thing for Solaris: once per book, you can elect to fight a battle with a defensive boost: you deal the same damage as if you were at -2 CS, yet recieve damage as if you were +2 CS (ie- if the battle would be normally at a +/-0 CR and you roll a 3 on the RNT, then you would deal 4 damage instead of 5, as if at -2 CS, and recieve 3 damage instead of 4, as if at +2 CS). This ability could be boosted at more Circles completed to a -4 CS damage dealt for a +4 CS damage recieved. This can be spaced out as well, as in only useable every X books to start off at the -4 for +4, etc.
This not only negates the rare auto-kill LW rolls, but provides more flexibility than just a simple -1 damage (increases chances of no damage recieved at higher CRs, as well as making LW take less of a kicking on bad rolls regardless of CR). Though, being this potent, it may need to be spaced out.
Thoughts?
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Post by egleris on Aug 27, 2010 23:51:54 GMT
Seems a bit too complex too implement. The bonus are already a stretch as it is from the far more simple CS/END boost, but this would really require far too much checks, specially if it keeps upgrading. The -1/-2 damage one was good enough and still solved the instant-kill problem, and was also fairly easier to use.
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