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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 28, 2010 0:10:30 GMT
Seems a bit too complex too implement. The bonus are already a stretch as it is from the far more simple CS/END boost, but this would really require far too much checks, specially if it keeps upgrading. The -1/-2 damage one was good enough and still solved the instant-kill problem, and was also fairly easier to use. It wouldn't require more checks- just pick your number off the RNT as normal- look up one CR parallel to see damage received and down one CR for damage dealt with the same number. Plays just like a normal combat, only adjusts damage dealt and received. It's extremely simple.
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Post by egleris on Aug 30, 2010 12:10:02 GMT
So, I think it’s time for a recap of what Magnakai modifies we’ve completed up until now.
Modified disciplines:
Curing – this will allow to heal 1d10 after combat, and to heal 5 END mid-battle once per book; to use it, the player END must be under half of its total. This would improve to 10 END at Principalin, and then at 20 END when reaching Archmaster, as it is now.
Animal Control – this will increase one CS by 2 by calling some form of wildlife to distract the enemy. This will work anywhere except deserts, wastelands, icy wastes, battlefields, and the darklands; it will work in cities by calling rats and similar creatures.
Invisibility – this will allow the player to add a +1 bonus to every combat roll he makes. The bonus will upgrade to +2 upon reaching the Mentora rank.
Psi-Surge – this will power up Mindblast to +2 CS, as is in the books. Added is a mid-term upgrade at Mentora, when the Psi-Surge CS bonus will go from +4 to +6; the cost is still 2 END per round of use and the Mindblast bonus stay the same, as they will upgrade at Archmaster rank as normal.
There was also the following suggestion to modify that was to make a discipline less powerful.
Weapon Mastery: reduce the CS bonus to +2 instead of +3, but make it stackable with Weaponskill. When upgraded at Scion-Kai, the effect will be replaced by the +4 CS, that is not stackable.
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Lorecircles. The Lorecircles cannot remain as they are now as they force the player to take the disciplines in a specific order, making the whole point of the thread, to have all disciplines equally interesting, totally moot.
Suggested Solution I – expand the composition of the LC, so as to make it impossible to take the combo F+S+SP; power up the CS bonuses so the total CS boost for the player stay the same. To solve the problem of overpowering the character in the GM series, remove CS boosting item from the list of items allowed in the GM series as necessary.
Suggested Solution II – remove the CS boost from the LC; make the LC balanced by means of special effect bonuses.
Suggested LC F bonuses:
- super attack (-2 CS, +5 damage for one round, once a combat) - CS boost (+2, become +3 with three LC) - great strike (-4 END, 1d10+1 damage, once a book at start combat)
Suggested LC L bonuses:
- coup de grace (?) (0 damage first round, +2 CS second round only, once a combat, not off-guard) - potion power up (all potions effects increased by a +1 factor) - 20 END mid-combat curing (only usable once every 5 book, become once every 3 with three LC). - END boost of 10 END? Spur of the moment suggestion, up for debate.
Suggested LC S bonuses:
- evasion defense (-2C, no damage taken for one round, once a combat) - damage taken -1, become -2 with three LC. (-2 damage taken turn instant kill into 10 damage taken) - turtle defense (damage dealt at -1 CR, damage taken at +1 CR, once a book for a full combat)
Suggested LC SP bonuses:
- no cost Psi-Surge for one round, once a combat - Psi-Surge CS boost x2, Mind Bomb (10 damage, -2x[number of uses] END cost, no using mind attacks) - Psi-Surge CS boost +2, Mind Bomb (1d10 damage, -2 END cost, no using mind attacks)
The clear advantage of this option is added features and more varied gameplay, though I would notice that several of these effects can be used to improve already existing disciplines (the second LC S bonus was, in fact, considered as a possible upgrade for Divination, and I would suggest the second LC L bonus as a reasonable upgrade for Pathsmanship).
I will remark that I find the bonuses option a bit convoluted, but it’s the one option with most supporters (2). So, this is the situation as it now stands. Where do we go from here?
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Post by pi4t on Aug 30, 2010 13:47:37 GMT
Well done, egleris, been meaning to do that myself for some time. Just one error that I can see. In Curing, the Archmaster Curing would be replaced by the LC L bonus. Oh, and I did suggest +5E for LC L, but I think 10E's probably better.
Let's all run through each individual suggestion and say if we want it or not. Please don't say WHY you want it, unless it's something that hasn't been said before, in which case put it at the bottom of your post. Feel free to copy my chart, it'll make it easier to tell who says what.
Animal Control: I thought it was going to be more often then once per book! Otherwise it's pretty useless. Perhaps a total of 5 CS per book, to be distributed as you like, as long as you're not in a desert, etc. So you could gain 2CS vs one enemy in book 8, and 3 CS vs another. In book 9 you might save it all up for the ZK fight, getting a +5CS bonus there. The bonus wouldn't carry over from book to book, and probably shouldn't work in the Darziarn, or other dimensions LW reaches through portals.
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Post by egleris on Aug 30, 2010 14:13:56 GMT
I will try very hard to think it's my fault, but I fail to see why.
Point 1: Animal Control can be used in every battle in any book as long as the conditions are satisfied. Where did you read "once a book" for it? I re-read, and theres not anywhere! I think you must have misread something; if it could only be used once a book, it would be totally unuseful!
Point 2: the bonuses I indicated for the LC where every single one that was suggested in the thread. They where supposed to be not mixed togheter! The LC F with all those bonus valid is so gamebreaking you won't ever need other disciplines to go from book 6 to book 12 without dying even once! I'm at a loss how it come that you decided the suggestion was to use all the suggested bonus together. I was just listing the alternatives to make it clearer what we've thought up until now.
Point 3:negating Archmaster Curing. Well, duh. It's obvious we'll not have the same bonus on two places; either it works for the Lorecircle, or for the Discipline. Since the target here is balancing discipline, not empowering lorecircles, I will vote to keep the Archmaster bonus as Archmaster bonus, and not empower the LC. Same point goes for the Psi-Surge improvement.
As for bonus from the Lorecircles I like and would like to see being kept: -damage taken -1: apply to divination (possibly as an upgrade) -potions power up: apply to either huntmastery of pathsmanship (also possibly as an upgrade)
Point 4: I DON'T WANT the LC bonuses. The game is supposed to be about choosing disciplines, not choosing lorecircles; that's what we should try to cut down, not encourage. So, my suggestion for the LC is as follow:
LC F: Weaponsmastery, Huntmastery, Curing: +3 CS, +0 END
LC S: Invisibility, Pathsmanship, Animal Control (no Huntmastery): +2 CS, +5 END
LC SP: Nexus, Divination, Psi-Surge, Psi-Screen +3 CS, + 3 END
LC L: Animal Control, Curing, Nexus: +0 CS, +6 END
There, this is an even more versatile setup than my first propose. The obvious GM problem will be resolved as such: Silver Helmet excluded from the list of Special Item you can keep while going in the GM series. GM character creation base END go from +30 to +35.
This is my suggestion. Simple and balanced. Removing Hunmastery mean that going the Fire way is not going the Solaris way, while the Light has one from each one of the others, as such being the easier one to complete.
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Post by pi4t on Sept 2, 2010 10:02:18 GMT
'this will increase one CS by 2'
I interpreted that as one per book.
I think that if the LCs are good, and better for the less good disciplines, that adds a new layer of strategy to discipline choices: 'Should I take a powerful Discipline that'll help me directly, or one that'll get me towards that great Lore-Circle?'
Oh, and why do you say that 'the game is supposed to be about choosing disciplines, not choosing lorecircles'? If JD had intended people to ignore the LCs, he wouldn't have included them! Ok, they weren't in the GM series, but they were in the Magnakai. You're talking as if you want to just get rid of the LCs completely!
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Post by egleris on Sept 2, 2010 10:48:31 GMT
Oh. My bad on that one, I just used "one" instead of "the player". That was the intended meaning... you though I wanted to write once, right? If that was the case though, I would have put it after the description. Anyway, I'm seeing how that could be prone to misunderstanding. I was probably thinking in my native language while writing, and that must have caused me to use it that way.
I'm not against the LC. They do add to the gameplay in strategic thinking, even as they are now (so much so in fact, that they force the player to take the disciplines in a predetermined order). I'm just saying that, while a lot of the suggested bonus are good, as I noticed, they could be applied to the less interesting disciplines, making them all more useful.
I even like the LC concept, but if we assign effects to thm, it will be hard to balance them right. The reason are many, but here's an example: the LC F. It's made of two disciplines, so a player can complete it easily; one of the disciplines is Weapon Mastery, the other is condivided with another LC, being a sort of "bonus" beside being also pretty important. It's built up this way to be used by the players that are facing a book as a standalone; it's always the best choice for them, and that's not something we should change. But it also should be inferior to the more extended ones, Solaris and Spirit, because they require far more commitment to be completed, and as such a long time player should be rewarded when taking them. Also, since the LC are symbolism for one's area of competence, it's clear that any bonus this LC give shall be related to combat somehow. So, we have to give it a bonus that make it appealing when playing a standalone, but inferior to the ones that come from the others; and let's not forget, in LW, a bonus that apply to combat is always the best possible one.
You see my point? My suggestion keep the LC interesting, still give it a bonus that make it the best choice as a standalone, while being clearly inferior to S and SP, and the composition of the LC is good for combat with the new setup, with the added bonus that now Curing, one of the discipline previously ignored, become important as a member of it. That's also my reason for putting AK in Solaris; that way every discipline has a chance to contribute to the CS improvement of the LC.
It's not the concept of the LC that I'm against; I simply don't think it possible to manage a bonuses setup that could both be balanced and appropriated. In that light, I think simply re-arranging the standard CS boosts and the composition of the LC is all that's needed to keep the system efficient; so, why try with something that much more complex? There's no need.
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Post by pi4t on Sept 2, 2010 18:28:56 GMT
Well, I'm not sure. Who thinks what's best? In fact, I'll add a poll. It'll be up for 3 days, so vote now!
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Post by egleris on Sept 2, 2010 20:13:11 GMT
Somehow, I doubt there will be many votes... well, at least is sporting.
Question: should the bonuses sides win, does that preclude modifying the composition? We could apply the bonuses even if we choose to change which discipline compose the LC, can't we?
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Post by pi4t on Sept 2, 2010 21:52:35 GMT
Of course.
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Sept 4, 2010 5:44:54 GMT
I still say I'm strongly against changing what disciplines are needed to complete the Lorecircles- there's quite a few instances like Book 6, Section 341 where it checks for a specific circle and lists what is needed. However, even if the concept of giving individual circles special powers was adopted, you'd still need to retool the CS and EP bonuses granted by each so that everything would balance out. I like most of the suggested changes- None of this seems to get in the way of GM bonuses, which would make balancing them a bit easier.
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Post by egleris on Sept 4, 2010 9:06:07 GMT
That would not be a problem. In the section where we described the changed Lorecircles, we will simply say, "when the books check if you completed a determined lorecircle, since their composition has been changed, refer only to the name of the lorecircle required and ignore which specific disciplines are listed in that section as composing it." Seems a pretty little modify in face of the bonuses you're suggesting.
The only two LC checked for in book 6 are the LC fire and the LC solaris (one section each), so they would need to be possible to complete with three disciplines (the way they are in my last suggestion), but other than that, I think what you listed is a false problem.
We modified Curing to suit the previous changes we made for Healing, and we will be changing the GM disciplines anyway if we want to balance them. As such, I think we should not take into consideration the GM series at all for now. Let's do one thing at a time, it's easier. Obviously, not using LC effect bonuses would make the work on the GM series easier too, but that's just my thought.
Also, I will repeat again: the purpose of my list was to present ALL the suggestion made for the LC, not whit the intent of adding them up (you would want to realize that the LC F whit all the suggestions active make you invincible, I'm not joking, try those bonus up against the Chaos Master whitout the usual +5 CS from the LC as they are now and then reflect on it) but whit the intent of CHOOSING ONE among them. All those bonus for any single LC are far, far too many.
It seems the poll is going to end into a draw. What would we do if that's the result?
As for the suggestion:
***You're depowering the disciplines to power-up the lorecircles. I though we wanted to make the disciplines MORE appealing, not less? Even if you want to add bonus to the LC you SHOULD NOT remove those bonus from the disciplines! I don't even know how to express how wrong that is. Please, please stop thinking along those way. If you want a bonus, make it something different from what the disciplines already have.
I think everybody can understand why I won't discussed modifies to the LC until the poll is closed.
I would add that I got the impression that the bonuses where supposed to replace the CS boost. Why are you talking of them again now? Surely you're not suggesting to use both? That would be... let's say overpowered.
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Post by pi4t on Sept 4, 2010 12:32:16 GMT
I still don't understand what you hate about giving the Lore-Circles powers. They can be used to make weak disciplines better, indirectly. I admit the Fire's overpowered as it is, but it was only a first draft, and that's not a reason to scrap the entire idea! And if we've done this right, we've already balanced the disciplines, without adding more abilities.
What you seem to want is something that will simultaneously both not affect people's choices and be interesting and important to take into account when making Discipline choices. You can't have both of these. Either you can have it not affect choices (which is done in the GM series, effectively making each Discipline a LC, giving 1CS and 2E), or you can have something that will affect people's choices.
And what we're trying to do is make the Disciplines, taking into account Lore-Circles, equally appealing. We're not trying to give everything as many bonuses as possible without it being overpowered. My suggestion makes a Lore-Circle more than just a few numbers, it becomes like a bonus Discipline, as a 'reward' for focussing and developing your skills in that area.
And yes, it should replace the CS/EP boost.
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Post by egleris on Sept 4, 2010 14:03:05 GMT
Sigh. I don't "hate" anything. If my opposition to the idea come across as hate, I'm sorry. I may have been a bit aggressive in a couple of passage, true, but I didn't wanted it to result that way. I accept even that other people like the idea, even if I personally don't. I simply think it's not the right way to go, but that's not hate.
As for why I'm opposed, let's see if I can present my position a bit better.
First of all, the modifies we indicated for the disciplines should stay as they are. Reducing a discipline effect to make the lorecircle containing it better make no sense.
Second, you say I want two things that are not compatible with each other. That's not true. It's obvious that the simple existence of the LC will influence the discipline choice. What I want isn't to eliminate this influence, but to reduce it to the bare minimum; enough to be interesting, but not enough to be determinant. I think we can safely agree that the canon version influence is determinant, and that's because the LC are unbalanced. I would like to see them balanced, and I simply think that giving the LC powers will make them determinant.
See, if you give the LC power, they become, as you said, new disciplines. That mean:
LC of Fire: 1.5 disciplines = 1 bonus discipline LC of Light: 2 disciplines = 1 bonus discipline LC of Solaris: 2.5 disciplines = 1 bonus discipline LC of Spirit: 4 disciplines = 1 bonus discipline
If this is to be balanced, that means that the LC powers should get progressively better as the number of disciplines required increase; as it make no sense for any of the other power to be on par with the LC SP. But, if we make any of them too powerful, we go back to the same unbalanced setup we have now, that we would hopefully avoid.
We already agreed that, with the modifies as they are now and without part of these modifies being stolen to give power to the lorecircles, then the disciplines are already on the same level - or as much on the same level as they can be, anyway.
As I said before, I find the boost idea the better one because it's easier to make it balanced; but I could also live with the power as long as their influence on the game is limited and a really balanced setup can be found. So far, none of those proposed is.
However, the more important thing to me is to modify the LC composition, at least that of the Lorecircles of Fire and Solaris.
The main problem in the canon setup is that the LC of Fire is too easy to complete. It doesn't require any commitment, it's always vantageous, contain disciplines among the most useful, and can be too easily combined with the LC SP, that is too much more powerful than the others. If Animal Kinship was in solaris instead of huntmastery and the solaris gave 2 CS instead of 1, the "standard pattern of disciplines progression", as they are now, would be impossible; this is just an example and clearly unbalanced on its own, but it's useful to clarify my point.
My point is this: to change the composition is essential.
It's the most important thing. If we apply special powers to the LC, then every single combinantion of discipline we could thought of would cause the powers to need being shifted and redefined; modifying CS and END bonuses instead is very simple. This is the core of my suggestion, and why I oppose the "LC as disciplines" idea. I want the composition to be modified, as that's the true way to balance, and this is easier to do with CS bonus than with powers. Also, as I said, to change a CS bonus you need just change a couple numbers; change powers require much more time and tought on the game balance.
I hope this is an exaustive enough justification of my thoughts. I don't hate anything; but my reasoning push me to oppose the LC powers position. Simple as that.
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Post by pi4t on Sept 4, 2010 15:05:33 GMT
Ok, so as I understand your post, the reason you want CS/EP boosts rather than powers is because it's easier to balance. If that isn't your point, then I'm sorry, and a lot of this post will be irrelevant.
Perhaps it is easier to balance to give CS/EP, but it doesn't make the game as interesting. If JD had said 'oh, I'll just make each discipline give stat boosts', then he'd probably have ended up balancing them better, and this thread would probably not exist. However, it would make the disciplines too similar, less distinguishable, and harm one of the strongest things LW has over most gamebooks: discipline selection. Essentially it can make selection boring. In other words, although it is probably easier to balance CS/EP boosts, if we can balance powers we end up with a much better game. So it's worth doing.
And yes, we might need to rearrange the Disciplines required for LCs, where did I say we shouldn't?
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Sept 4, 2010 16:43:52 GMT
Hmmm... That did inspire an idea. The CS and EP bonuses for Lorecircles should be done away with, instead granting permanent bonuses like the GM series does (+1 CS, +2 EP per completed book). Refining the special abilities granted by completing a circle would be the central motivation for completing it. This leaves the circles as a means to grant individual disciplines an extra boost, whether one wants it or wishes to forsake it for something better. Tearing them apart with what's currently on the table: - Weaponmastery: Stackable +2 CS: yes
- Weaponmastery, Upgrade: CS bonus to +4CS, not stackable: yes
- Hunmastery, Cannon: Bonuses to rolls, evade surprise attacks, better chance of preemptive strike (good as-is, no need for tinkering in my opinion)
- Lore-Circle Fire: Super Attack: -2 CS, +5 damage for one round, once a combat
- Lore-Circle Fire: Great Strike: -4 END, 1d10+1 damage, once a book at start combat- can be used in conjunction with Mind Bomb
As you see, this is an excellent choice for a combat-heavy playstyle, focusing on dealing damage, making it more appealing to those with a high starting CS. Also, with Great-Strike stackable with Mind Bomb, you can take a hefty personal toll in EP loss to deal 2d10 damage. Even alone, that's still an extra 4 EP you'd have to heal, so it seems fair even with Curing. - Hunmastery, Cannon: Bonuses to rolls, evade surprise attacks, better chance of preemptive strike (good as-is, no need for tinkering in my opinion)
- Pathsmanship, Cannon: Find correct path, evade ambushes (this may require a little tinkering)
- Invisibility: +1 to combat rolls
- Invisibility, Upgrade: +2 to combat rolls
- Lore-Circle Solaris: damage taken -1
- Lore-Circle Solaris: turtle defense: damage dealt at -1 CR, damage taken at +1 CR, once a book for a full combat
- -?-Lore-Circle Solaris: turtle defense, upgrade: damage dealt at -2 CR, damage taken at +2 CR, once a book for a full combat
There's little point in cancelling out an AK on LW when Invisibility eventually does it. Anyways, completing this circle would be more fitting for someone who wants to fight defensively- less damage sustained for less damage dealt. An excellent choice for a low-stat run. - Psi-screen, Cannon: Evades extra damage and CS loss when psychic attacks are made. (awesome as-is, no need for tinkering in my opinion)
- Divination, Cannon: Evades a few combats, unlocks extra info (may need some extremely mild tinkering, though it may not)
- Nexus, Cannon: Pick locks, levitate items, prevent elemental damage (awesome as-is, no need for tinkering in my opinion)
- Psi-surge: -2 EP for +4 CS against most opponents.
- Psi-surge upgrade: -1 EP for CS boost.
- Lore-Circle Spirit: Psi-Surge CS boost +2
- Lore-Circle Spirit: Mind Bomb (1d10 damage for -4 EP once per book, stackable with Great-Strike)
This here has two extremely valuable disciplines in my opinion- Psi-screen and Nexus. It cannot be completed in a single book, thus making it more appealing to a campaign player. However, with it's limited benefits, I do suggest some minor tinkering (possibly to Divination). Still, a potential Mind Bomb/Great-Strike combo for 2d10 damage at -8 EP does make it a very tempting offer. - Animal Control: +2CS in woodlands (Should it be stackable with Animal Kinship's bonus VS animals?)
- Curing: Heal 10 EP after combat
- Curing: Heal 5E mid battle, once per book (cannot heal after combat if used)
- Curing, Upgrade: Heal 10E mid battle, once per book (cannot heal after combat if used)
- Lore-Circle Light: potion power up: +2 EP for curative potions/ +1 CS for combat potions?
- Lore-Circle Light: +20 END mid-combat curing, once every two books (cannot be used in conjunction with Curing mid-battle healing)
- Lore-Circle Light, Upgrade: +20 END mid-combat curing, once every book (cannot be used in conjunction with Curing mid-battle healing)
This makes this Circle highly desirable, though it is counter-balanced by not having much kick in combat when compared to other Disciplines and Circles. Let's check some tactics with these as-is using everyone's favorite to play as a stand-alone adventure- Book 11: - Tactic one- Complete Light, pick up Invisibility (less chance of an AK, emergency EP mid-battle for one fight, boosted healing herbs. It's now survivable)
- Tactic Two- Complete Fire, pick up Curing (potential massive damage to even the odds, CS boost, emergency EP boost mid-battle, can find healing herbs as-written. Just about as survivable)
- Tactic three- Complete Solaris (less damage received overall, Just about as survivable, even though you won't find any healing herbs without Curing, so it makes things a little trickier)
- Tactic four- Complete Fire, Pick up Invisibility (Less chance of an AK, CS boost, and potential at massive damage. Barely survivable, but can be done)
- Tactic five- Psi-surge, Weaponmastery, and Curing (this is just as survivable as it was originally- barely.)
- Tactic six- Psi-surge, Invisibility, Curing (lots of herbs found, emergency EP boost mid-combat, less chance of an AK- overall, barely survivable)
- Tactic seven- Invisibility, Weaponmastery, Curing (as above, just with less of a CS boost but no EP drain)
You now have a few more viable chances to play this as a stand-alone, all without going into God-Mode if you were to play a full campaign. I still say we should look a little more closely at Pathsmanship and Divination, but everything seems to be adding up quite well. *EDIT* a note about Mind Bomb's and Great Strike's EP loss: if it was felt that Curing would eliminate the offset, you could set it up that these EP losses could only be healed via drinking potions.
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