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Post by Al on Aug 4, 2005 9:31:13 GMT
Makes sense, the only thing is would be if their is a sustaibable market for them? I know that FF has re-released some of its books (the good ones) but I am not sure what the sales are like... any idea? Al
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Post by outspaced on Aug 4, 2005 11:13:59 GMT
First off, I can't agree that they reprinted the "best" ones. They reprinted the ones exclusively written by Jackson and Livingstone. While some of those may fall into the category of "best", others do not. As for sales--it's anyone's guess. They've reprinted about 20 and released a "brand new" adventure that Livingstone has cobbled together from 20+ year old notes (and is apparently not very good), yet the future release schedule seems shrouded in mystery. And some of the best FF books by other writers (Keith Martin, Peter Darvill-Evans, and others) will apparently never be reprinted, which is a real shame. From what I've heard, and this likely will not happen, but the idea mooted for future FF development is with some kind of TV show along the lines of Knightmare.
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Post by Al on Aug 4, 2005 11:41:56 GMT
Knightmare? that sounds kind of lame already... My favourites where in teh ones that were re-released though. Call me a traditionalist, but Deathtrap Dungeon and Trial of Champions I thought where really enjoyable... although it has been probably over a decade and half since I read them! I did not realize that it was stuff only written by those two, but I guess that is the easist with copywrite and all that. Al
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Post by North Star on Aug 4, 2005 12:06:01 GMT
Copyright. I had noticed the sole author thing, but then the first six are amongst everyone's favourites I think. The others are not so good mostly - my absolute worst one is House of Hell!
NS.
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Post by outspaced on Aug 4, 2005 12:59:13 GMT
Nah, House of Hell is great because it's "not-another-Livingstone-patented-dungeon crawl-with-pointless-options". ;D
In general, though everyone raves about Warlock of Firetop Mountain, that's mostly nostalgia talking. It does have some memorable encounters, but the writing is positively awful, and much of it makes no sense (the merchant in a room selling magical candles--WHY???). If I were to pick my own favourites, there would be #24: Creature of Havoc (well-written, fiendish "puzzle" style adventure with a very absorbing plot and scenario); #25: Beneath Nightmare Castle, (excellent Cthulhu-style horror mixed into a fantasy setting); #45: Spectral Stalkers (well-written, memorable encounters, world- and dimension-travelling adventure); #38: Vault of the Vampire (well-realised gothic vampire story set amidst the Bavarian-esque mountains and chateau); #35: Daggers of Darkness (a "fun" adventure romp with unusual additional rules and a seemingly limitless scope for exploring); and maybe, just maybe, #26: Crypt of the Sorcerer (I know it's insanely hard, but it has very, very memorable encounters). Of those, only the first is by Jackson, and the last one is by Livingstone. #s 2-5 are by Peter Darvill-Evans (x2), Keith Martin and Luke Sharp.
Of course, after that would come #10: House of Hell (Jackson); Sorcery 1-4 (Jackson; not originally part of the FF series); #20: Sword of the Samurai (Smith & Thomson); #54: Legend of Zagor (Livingstone); etc.
I don't rate Deathtrap Dungeon as highly as most because I don't think it has much replayability, and it's unfairly hard without having the improved prose and slightly more logical plot of Crypt. *shrug* I would have preferred a mixture of authors to have had their books published. While the copyright issue may have some truth, I think they did a disservice to younger fans by not showing them how good the FF series could be, which is why all amateur gamebooks by new FF fans are tedious dungeon crawls with loads of SKILL 20 STAMINA 92 bad guys.
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Post by Al on Aug 4, 2005 13:03:41 GMT
I agree with you about it being unfairly hard, it was definately one of the ones that had the one true path and all other options lead to death... if I recall correctly, the first choice you make is whether to turn right or left, and if you did one, you could have all sorts of adventures, but never succeed in teh book!! Still a good memory though. Al
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Post by North Star on Aug 4, 2005 19:23:09 GMT
That was what REALLY bugged me about FF - you made one error and whoosh, you would NOT know about it until the game-breaking moment. Unless you're from the "Fiendish Fantasy" school of writing, all gamebooks should have a chance of being beaten, no matter what your initial scores, without enormous luck or extensive pre-/post-book planning!
NS.
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Aug 5, 2005 7:56:03 GMT
Man, I am an absolute FF nut, probably more so than Lone Wolf (although I realise that technically LW is superior in almost every aspect).
My personal faves:
Warlock of Firetop Mountain (yes, its dungeon ecology is ludicrous, which I love. Why is that guy selling candles? Stuffed if I know, but it sure is intriguing!)
Citadel of Chaos (A bit of a linear path to victory, but you don't need great stats to beat it, and the spells make every encounter interesting.)
City of Thieves (Killer - it has just the right level of difficulty, a cool setting and damn fine illustrations.)
Deathtrap Dungeon (Hard as hard, but atmospheric and again with great illustrations - possibly the best in the entire series.)
House of Hell (Nightmarish. A children's book where cultists wear severed goat heads.)
Creature of Havoc (My all time favourite. Shows exactly what Steve Jackson is capable of when he puts his mind to it, and makes me think he was phoning it in for some of his earlier books.)
I like heaps of others, but I could rant like this for a good long while. I do have to register my extreme dislike for Crypt of the Sorcerer - It has a level of difficulty that is completely insane. You have a 2-in-6 chance of dying on your third paragraph if you take the correct path to victory. It's a great book to read if you cheat, but playing by the rules its rubbish.
Eye of the Dragon was fairly average. Stock standard Ian Livingstone, really.
Fighting Fantasy's are a completely different experience to Lone Wolf, all told. Whereas Lone Wolf is about rereading and finding various cool paths to victory, FF is usually about trying again and again to find that one true path to victory, and dying heaps and heaps of times. I enjoy both styles.
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Post by North Star on Aug 5, 2005 11:40:42 GMT
I preferred the "I win every battle" route in FF, mainly because even if you were immortal, "the one true route" would constantly trip you up... It probably says something when I play my LWs as fairly as possible!
NS.
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Post by outspaced on Aug 5, 2005 12:50:23 GMT
Say, Nathan, if you want to join the Gamebooks Yahoo Mailing List, I'm sure you might get some kind of discussion going after a couple of months of virtually no posts. I appreciate the different styles of the series, though I feel Lone Wolf is better, as you say. And yeah, the Harpoon Flies can put a premature end to your quest in CotS, but it's a memorable encounter, coupled with a darn good illustration by (runs and checks) John Sibbick. Everything about that adventures seems memorable to me--the Rad-Hulks, the Howling Tunnels, the Gargantis, the Haunted Graveyard, Simm and Borri (and his hot air balloon) . . . everything just seems to click. But the actual gameplay is, as you say, tremendously unfair. I've managed to complete every single FF adventure, even (somehow) the two remarkably unfair Clash of the Princes books. Jackson generally doesn't put loads of high-powered monsters against you (which is what makes Creature of Havoc so re-playable; combat is almost incidental to the unfolding story), but he is guilty of being unfair in books like Appointment with F.E.A.R., in which I can never remember which case I'm supposed to follow up, based on the superpower you choose, to find the necessary information. :-\
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Post by artichu on Aug 5, 2005 19:32:39 GMT
Right; for me the issue in having to go back in time and restart a book isn't just fairness but *realism* -- it's hard for me to suspend disbelief and pretend my character really is accomplishing all this when I know that it's only because he's had the memories of 500 other characters who died horrible deaths magically beamed into his head. (And the Warrior received a premonition that if he chose to forge onward instead of investigating this side passage, he would merely reach the end of his quest without the third key he would eventually need. Again. And the burden of his past lives weighed heavy on his heart...)
That kind of thing is unavoidable, I guess, but I'd prefer it only to happen once in a while, and when it does happen I want it to be clearly because I made a *mistake* last time around rather than because I did something perfectly reasonable that happened to be the wrong choice. Killing me for choosing to fight a horrible, enormous monster rather than trying to run away is acceptable; killing me or making the game unwinnable for turning left rather than right at an unmarked passage really isn't.
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Aug 6, 2005 12:48:05 GMT
That's why I pretend that all of my gamebook characters are like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. Whatever happens to them, it's back to Paragraph 1 unless they finish the quest! But they remember everything, of course. You can even pretend that your character has some form of precognition for all of those illustrations you look at by accident.
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Post by artichu on Aug 7, 2005 2:18:40 GMT
Banedon: "Hey, Loney, whatcha up to?"
Lone Wolf: "I'm just packing for our trip to Tahou. Why?"
Banedon: "Dude -- is that the *Dagger of Vashna*?"
Lone Wolf: "Oh, this?" *hides behind back* "No, it's just an ordinary steak knife. For when we eat steak. On the road. Like we do all the time. You know, because of my Kai Huntmastery skill that lets me conjure cattle from dirt."
Banedon: "No, dude, that's the Dagger of Vashna. I can feel the evil emanating off it from here. You *know* evil gives me a rash. And you said you were keeping it here for safekeeping because if any servants of the Darklords got it they could resurrect Vashna, and there's going to be tons of Drakkarim and Kraan and Helghasts and whatnot all over the place, and--"
Lone Wolf: "Look, I thought it might come in handy, okay?"
Banedon: "Then why aren't you taking the Sommerswerd? That Dagger doesn't even have a CS bonus!"
Lone Wolf: "I..." *shuffles around guiltily* "I had a premonition we might have need of this weapon."
Banedon: "A premonition? You mean like a dream? A portent?"
Lone Wolf: "Sort of like a dream. Well, more like... a newsletter." *sheepishly takes out his copy of the Lone Wolf Club Newsletter*
Banedon: *speechless* "YOU JOINED YOUR OWN FAN CLUB?"
Lone Wolf: "Look, I've only been a member for a few months!"
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Post by Dusk Fox on Aug 7, 2005 4:18:44 GMT
Right; for me the issue in having to go back in time and restart a book isn't just fairness but *realism* No, realism would be that when you die in a Lone Wolf book, you put the book down and never play Lone Wolf again. What would be the point? He's dead.
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Post by North Star on Aug 7, 2005 15:32:32 GMT
Not to burst anyone's bubble here, but TRUE realism would be in not even picking up the book to start with... Great post, Artichu! NS.
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