Rules Discussion

[Peregrine]

Right, obviously there are decisions that have to be made about what particular interpretation of the rules I implement when automating various things in LWAC. Hopefully, I'll put in an optional rules menu Real Soon Now. In the meantime, what rules interpretations would you like to see?

Here's a list of all the possibly disputed decisions I've had to make so far that I can recall.
* Kai-blast and Kai-ray disallow the use of other psychic attacks in the current round.
* Kai-blast and Kai-ray damage are not subject to damage multipliers. Flaming weapon damage with advanced Grand Weaponmastery is.
* Adgana addiction can happen only once.
* No dual wielding! (This is top of the alternative rules list, I promise.)

[Ghost Bear]

Yup, I agree with all of those. even the dual-wielding if we're following a strict interpretation of the rules.

-GB

[Peregrine]

Okay, but what options would you like? Dual-wielding could be done any number of ways. I like my interpretation simply because it sticks almost to the letter of the rules, but I know certain features are favoured by people who actually play with dual wielding (one weapon only for the Kai series, for instance).

I'm also looking at a way to solve the deadly armour paradox (which is in full effect in the program: take off your chainmail when you have less than 4EP and you will die). I like Zipp's rule, or possibly a variation--I'm not sure how close to Zipp's meaning my reading is: armour provides temporary hit points for each combat, which are lost before you take any damage. If you wear chainmail and take 7EP damage in combat, that's 4 to the armour and 3 to Lone Wolf. If you take 2EP damage, the armour absorbs it all and you subtract the extra 2 after the combat.

[outspaced]

My own interpretation of the Armour is that the bonuses affect only the maximum score, which was an idea stated on this forum fairly recently, I think. So if you remove your Armour, you don't lose 4 points of ENDURANCE, but 4 points come off your Maximum ENDURANCE total.

I'd also imagine that to be easier to program!

[Ghost Bear]

I agree with outspaced on the implementation of armour.

As for the dual weapons... What exactly is your interpretation again? If you have two weapons, you get:

+2CS at Kai level.
+3CS at Magnakai level.
+4CS at Scion Kai
And
+5 at Grand Master

I play with one weapon only for the Kai series. My reasoning is that a Kai Lord only masters one weapon in the Kai series, so he's not skilled enough to dual wield. Of course, that's just personal opinion. Since being able to wield two weapons only gives the same bonus as the shield anyway, I don't see a big problem.

Also, what happens when you reach the rank of Sun Lord? Do you do an extra +2EP per round if you have two metal-edged weapons? (I would say yes to this one, by the way)

-GB

[Peregrine]

outspaced said:

My own interpretation of the Armour is that the bonuses affect only the maximum score, which was an idea stated on this forum fairly recently, I think. So if you remove your Armour, you don't lose 4 points of ENDURANCE, but 4 points come off your Maximum ENDURANCE total.

Well it's effective for the game, but I can't help feeling it's unrealistic... if you pick up armour mid-adventure, you effectively lose EP by putting it on. (Put it this way: you're at max EP, and you put on chainmail. You're suddenly 4EP below max and could theoretically take benefit from Laumspur now.)

Still, it could be an option.

Ghost said:

As for the dual weapons... What exactly is your interpretation again?

In effect, it's the same as yours (I just included a bit of reasoning that made it fit the existing rules). The only difference is that my literal reading means you can dual-wield at Kai level (but this is only of benefit if you can get two weapons of your Weaponskill type--taking a shield is probably still a better option). The differences come in with others' more complex dual-wield rules, which I'm sure I've seen around (restrictions on what weapons can be paired, for instance, beyond the simple one/two-handed restriction).

Also, what happens when you reach the rank of Sun Lord? Do you do an extra +2EP per round if you have two metal-edged weapons? (I would say yes to this one, by the way)

So would I.

[PurpleTurtle]

Just fyi, in some computer games (example: Baldur's Gate or anything with the Infinity Engine), when you equip an item with +x hitpoints, BOTH your current and max hitpoints go up.

When you take it off, BOTH your current and max hitpoints go down. If this takes you below 0, you croak.

As for dual wielding, the rules say nothing about being able to do it. So it should not be officially supported by the program, I think.

[Peregrine]

PurpleTurtle said:

Just fyi, in some computer games (example: Baldur's Gate or anything with the Infinity Engine), when you equip an item with +x hitpoints, BOTH your current and max hitpoints go up.

When you take it off, BOTH your current and max hitpoints go down. If this takes you below 0, you croak.

True, but I think this would be for magic equipment that enhances your own health, right? I always took the EP bonus (even for special armours) to be a result of the armour's own "endurance", taking damage instead of you. (In that light, progressive damage to the armour seems best. I've looked into calculating the proportions of damage to e.g. Lone Wolf : chainmail : padded waistcoast. It can be done...)

As for dual wielding, the rules say nothing about being able to do it. So it should not be officially supported by the program, I think.

They say nothing overt about not being able to do it. The default behaviour will be to have dual wielding off, but the point is that people do use it, and I want my program to be able to cater to different playing styles. The original Action Chart can, but that's because it does absolutely nothing for you--it's just a piece of paper. Things get more complex when you (or rather, when I) start automating things.

[Peregrine]

Following on from the discussion in the other thread, I have a few questions on people's preferences for NRD (Not Restorable by Discipline) EP losses. I can count 6 types of damage:
* Combat injuries
* Extra combat damage ("lose xEP per round due to...")
* Self-damage from using psychic attacks
* Starvation
* Helshezag
* Section-specified damage ("You bang into the desk corner. Lose 4EP.")

Now, under a simple normal/NRD split, I expect combat damage would be "normal", and psychic self-damage and starvation would be "NRD". Extra damage and section-specific damage would depend on what causes it, and Helshezag is anyone's guess (though I think I'd side with NRD).

The questions, then, are:
* Do you agree with my summary of damage types?
(Are two categories sufficient? Where would you put Helshezag? etc.)
* Given damage Not Restorable by Discipline, what can restore it? Sleep? Laumspur? Higher Disciplines?
* How important do you consider this to be? (The biggest barrier to implementation is the current combat mechanic. Endurance scores in and out of combat are completely separate up until you press the button to save the combat results. Besides NRD concerns, this also means that using Psi-surge on Altan will lose you Target Points, not normal EP.)

[Gazguz]

Regarding the armour question I personally think that taking off armour should not result in death under any circumstances. The problem obviously stems from the use of armour and endurance being combined as being just endurance or resistance to injury.

If you create a new concept of say a Resistance To Death (RTD) score that consists of combining both endurance and armour together which is reduced by various things like enemy action, hunger, accidental damage, magic, etc etc then when you remove armour or protective devices it reduces the resistance to death score but not the endurance score.

In other words things like hunger come directly off your endurance score, whereas attack or other damage come off your RTD score. If your RTD score is higher than your endurance score then your endurance score doesn't change. After combat if you RTD score is reduced to below your current endurance score then your endurance is reduced to the RTD score. If your RTD equals zero in combat you are dead and your EP is changed to zero.

So if you have an EP score of 23 and you have a helmet that adds 2EP (in this case 2 armour points) and a padded leather jacket that adds 2 EP or 2 armour points, then you have an EP score of 23 and an armour score of 4 which gives you a combined score of 27RTD.

In battle the first 4 points you lose will be stopped by the armour and the rest will come straight off your EP. This is only realistic if they keep hitting the same place in the armour but is no worse than the current model used and avoids the potential situation where after fighting on a boat and having your EP reduced to 2 EPs and having to abandon ship you die in the water when you have to take off your 4 EP chainmail waistcoat to stop yourself from drowning.
It doesn't make sense to lose strength when you take off armour... but it does make sense that you will lose resistance to damage when you take off armour.

The problem arises that your armour really only absorbs the first blow or first few blows and is then useless for the rest of the fight. Also that when using healing potions you can heal the EP lost that is supposed to be representing the protection of the armour... ie you are healing chainmail.

Of course adding the armour value to endurance and coming up with a new value that I have called RTD for the purposes of this discussion will add complication and you might question whether this complication is worth it when the simpler but imperfect answer is to simply reduce the top score of the EP. On the other hand the combat ratio is already calculated before every combat so a RTD figure is not that hard to calculate at the same time too.

The default behaviour will be to have dual wielding off, but the point is that people do use it, and I want my program to be able to cater to different playing styles.

I very much like the idea of flexibility. Sometimes I make up my own very strict rules and play the game and see how it changes my options and the outcomes.

* Combat injuries
* Extra combat damage ("lose xEP per round due to...")
* Self-damage from using psychic attacks
* Starvation
* Helshezag
* Section-specified damage ("You bang into the desk corner. Lose 4EP.")

I think there are pretty much three types of damage. Psychic and physical with physical split into damage and absence. Your mind can be destroyed and your body can be destroyed. I don't know about healing your mind though as long as you retain your sanity you should be able to recover with time. (I can remember losing disciplines for the rest of that particular advanture.. but it returned over time) but your body can be healed if it is damaged by repairing damage. If your body is damaged by lack of food then it will take food to repair that damage.

The question again is how complex do you want to make it?

Just to review:

* Combat injuries
* Extra combat damage ("lose xEP per round due to...")
* Self-damage from using psychic attacks
* Starvation
* Helshezag
* Section-specified damage ("You bang into the desk corner. Lose 4EP.")

Helshezag and Psychic damage are magic related, but one effects mental damage and the other is physical damage. Combat injuries, section specific damage and extra combat injuries due to things like heat, radiation, cold, or poison or disease are physical... magic cures like curing should heal those when the necessary rank is achieved whereas certain potions might be required for certain diseases like limbdeath requiring Oede.

[Dusk Fox]

At the risk of sounding like a total n00b (which I am)...

I've heard a lot about "dual wielding" in various places and forums, but I haven't been able to find a specific discussion about it (only discussions where it is brought up, because everyone already seems to know all about it). What are the actual rules for it? I'm just as happy to be pointed to a topic as I am for someone to actually quote rules.

On the matter of damage types, I'd actually lump Psi-Surge and Helshezag together in an "Attrition" damage-type, meaning combat methods that cost you Endurance. They're similar in that respect.

[Zipp]

Here's a link to a topic about it. I never dual wielded, so I don't know the rules for doing it:

projectaon.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1096453382

[outspaced]

Just to reiterate: The reasoning behind Dual-wielding is somewhat specious at best, and there are no references to it in either the rules section of the Lone Wolf books, nor in any of the Lone Wolf Club Newsletters.

[Dusk Fox]

outspaced said:

Just to reiterate: The reasoning behind Dual-wielding is somewhat specious at best, and there are no references to it in either the rules section of the Lone Wolf books, nor in any of the Lone Wolf Club Newsletters.

That I gathered--I had seen it referenced enough to know how it came about, and it's some pretty spurious reasoning, in my opinion. It's just mentioned so often that I gathered it was like D&D players using the common "ignore encumbrance" or "ignore material components" house rules in that enough people do it that they assume everyone else does.

I may be a total cheating bastard when it comes to how I play, but I don’t think I’m going to adopt any shady house rules. I think maxing out my beginning stats and knowing where all the best items are is enough.

[Dusk Fox]

Zipp said:

Here's a link to a topic about it. I never dual wielded, so I don't know the rules for doing it:

projectaon.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1096453382

Thank you very much for that. It shows me pretty much everything I needed to know to avoid it like the plague.