Big Magnamund Map

[floribur]

But when you compare MC map and LW18 map (a better map to compare with the larger Northern Magnamund map, I think), you find again Resa at the very limit between Anari and Slovia, but too a large slovian territory east of the Churdas, from Resa to the forests west of Casiorn (look at map2).

Attachments:

[floribur]

I think this territory is historically Vassa: first it could have been founded by Anarians (Dausar sounding more Vassa than Slovian), and after the Black Zakhan took one third of Anari territory north of the Chah Mountains, it became Vassagonian. But in MS5000, Slovia could have gained this territory as a militay march, protecting the heart of the country from Vassagonian threats -we know from Joe Vassagonia and Slovia were numerous times at war, from MS3020-3021 (Churdas War) til MS5017-5031 (War of Lyrisian Accession).
Slovia could have gained this territory in MS 4496 at the end of the Great Vassagonian Imperial War, which opposed Vassagonia and a lot of nations including Slovia. The annexion could be more recent, linked to a victory at the end of the War of Lyrisian Accession: that could even fit with a detail given by Joe about this war : « Although Vassagonia provided money and troops to Eldenora & Delden throughout this conflict, most of Vassagonia’s military campaigns were aimed at Slovia directly »: then Slovia could have particularly suffered during this war, and claimed a territorial protection from Vassagonia (but only if Lyris and Slovia won, of course!).

Then, to conclude about Dausar: is it a Vassagonian or a Slovian city?
Same reply I made for Karkaste: it depends the date chosen by Honza for his map.

[floribur]

Mar 3, 2010 7:05:07 GMT Honza said:

Just a thought, could anyone have a look at Mongoose edition books? What about the maps?

Very nice maps, their only problem is that they are too dark.

Mar 3, 2010 7:05:07 GMT Honza said:

Are they the same as in original editions? Or are they more rich in detail?

The contents are exactly the same, and I must admit that was a little deception for me as I thought some more details could have been added.
But some minor details are different: for instance, Durenon river seems longer on the Lastlands map (and I used this detail to justify a special lake invented by Shzar, a friend working on a description of the vale of Hammerdal).

Mar 3, 2010 7:05:07 GMT Honza said:

And are maps also in novels? (Glory and Greed especially?) Thanks for information.

Yeah, this time we had real new maps!
You should buy the books, and not only for the maps, because they're very good (I only started Dragons of Lencia, but I read good things about Glory & Greed too).

[floribur]

Mar 1, 2010 8:41:23 GMT Honza said:

for the book maps, sometimes they are very uncanny. In book 25, I think the city of Cetza is still considered in Hammerlands territory. And for example in book 18 map, there is shown Dausar and Resa in Casiorn territory. And, surprisingly, Lovka and Choonova as Anarian cities. The city of Zaman is considered as Ogian? And Nadgazad is missing at all...

You're right, this map is strange.
Zaman, appearing as a Magadorian city on LW8 map, could perfectly have been captured by Ogia at the time of LW18. The absence of Nadgazad could mean the city has been destroyed at the end of the war and is now no more than a little city.
But Casiorn was never a military nation and there's no reason Dausar or Resa could have been annexed by the city-state. And Anari could have the power to invade Eastern Slovia, but there is an old alliance between them.

Two possible explanations:

The colours don't show the political status but the cultural nature of each city. Then, Casiorn, Dausar and Resa could share a common "Western Dry Main Vassa" origin, even if Casiorn is independant, Dausar a Slovian city and Resa an Anarian city. Red colour could represent the "Stornlands cultural area", including Lyris, Salony, Delden, Eldenora, but not whole Slovia and Magador.
The only strange thing with this hypothesis is that red colour is used too for the Sommlending cities and Temel, a Cloeasian city...

To be honest, I think the explanation could be that the mapmaker took only some of the existing maps to draw the new one, and reported the colours he found without wonder anything: on LW1-2, 4, 6 and 13 maps, Sommlend, Cloeasian and Stornlands cities are red, but Casiorn, Palmyrian cities and Mogaruith (?!) are blue, as on LW18 map! He surely missed LW8 and 9 maps, and then had to make extrapolations and choices for the cities of the areas covered by these 2 maps (Anari+Southeastern Slovia, and Northwestern Stornlands+Ogia area): Chanz was well identified as an Eldenorian city, Briona as a Deldenian city and Ostov as a Slovian city, but Zaman, Resa, Dausar, Choonova and Lovka were wrongly colorized.
Maybe he had original Joe’s LW8 map (available on the excellent PA LW Originals file), as he colorized in yellow Talestrian cities like Joe had colorized them in orange; Then he just made a mistake with Zaman. But that seems quite clear that he didn’t have any of the LW9 maps, as main problems are localized in the area covered by this map.

Mar 1, 2010 8:41:23 GMT Honza said:

We have to choose the year, in which we have the best political information.

Wow!
Then we have to do what I made for Karkaste for each Magnamund city, and at the end choose the most informed year! ;D

[Honza]

Mar 5, 2010 16:57:35 GMT floribur said:

The absence of Nadgazad could mean the city has been destroyed at the end of the war and is now no more than a little city.

I disagree with that, as Nadgazad is present in the book 16 map, and also in book 13 the story so far states that "Following the destruction of the Darklords of Helgedad, the Giaks, ... sought refuge in the gigantic city-fortresses of Nadgazad, Aarnak, Gournen, and Kaag." So I suppose the city is simply forgotten (maybe the map should be corrected accordingly)

Mar 5, 2010 16:57:35 GMT floribur said:

Maybe he had original Joe’s LW8 map (available on the excellent PA LW Originals file)

Maybe, and it is really excellect (it was one of my best sources)

Mar 5, 2010 16:57:35 GMT floribur said:

... Chanz was well identified as an Eldenorian city, Briona as a Deldenian city and Ostov as a Slovian city, but Zaman, Resa, Dausar, Choonova and Lovka were wrongly colorized.

This is indeed likelier possibility. Maybe it also could be repaired in the next PA re-release (at least cities Resa, Lovka and Choonova)

[floribur]

Mar 8, 2010 6:10:17 GMT Honza said:

I disagree with that, as Nadgazad is present in the book 16 map, and also in book 13 the story so far states that "Following the destruction of the Darklords of Helgedad, the Giaks, ... sought refuge in the gigantic city-fortresses of Nadgazad, Aarnak, Gournen, and Kaag." So I suppose the city is simply forgotten (maybe the map should be corrected accordingly)

You're certainly right, that's a mistake on the map.

Mar 8, 2010 6:10:17 GMT Honza said:

Mar 5, 2010 16:57:35 GMT floribur said:

... Chanz was well identified as an Eldenorian city, Briona as a Deldenian city and Ostov as a Slovian city, but Zaman, Resa, Dausar, Choonova and Lovka were wrongly colorized.

This is indeed likelier possibility. Maybe it also could be repaired in the next PA re-release (at least cities Resa, Lovka and Choonova)

I see you wasn't convinced by my arguments about Dausar, based on a map comparison.

Even if Dausar did not become Slovian as I think, the city just can't be Casiornian, as LW18 map suggests (Casiorn and Dausar being blue): city-states generally can control some villages, but not other cities, I think (or they’re just normal states). And Dausar is quite far from Casiorn.

2nd hypothesis: Dausar is (still) Anarian. That's possible, and this could resolve the colour problem with Resa, Lovka and Choonova too: the mapmaker could have forgotten to colorize in blue Lovka, Choonova, Tahou and Zila (the grey colour we see on the map not being really an intentional membership colour). But then, Anari would just control Dausar and the hills around, nothing more, because the Republic is supposed to have lost, after a war against Vassagonia 3 centuries before MS5050, one half of its territory, corresponding to all the Dry Main western area between the Chah Mountains, Casiorn and the Vakar Mountains, and it would be logical Anari lost too Dausar at this time.

3rd an last hypothesis : Dausar is Vassagonian.
For me, Dausar became Vassagonian when Anari lost half of its northern territories. But links between Dausar and Vassagonian's heart must be very difficult, as only a track (the Gold Trail) exists between Dausar and Teph. There must be much more commercial and proximity links between Dausar and Ostov, Suentina or Tahou than with Teph or Ferufezan (to quote only the nearer Vassagonian cities). Then Slovia could have easily taken the control of the city.

The conclusion could be relative again: Dausar’s membership changed between MS5050 (MC map) and MS5077 (LW18 map). In MS5050, it is Slovian, but after the 1st part of the Darklands War (when Darklands and Vassagonia made their joint attack) Vassagonia could have conquered back the city. And even after Vassagonia’s withdrawal, Anari could have restaured its ancient authority on the city.

[bittermind]

Feb 28, 2010 11:23:52 GMT Honza said:

Thanks a lot. I hope too someone can contact JD.

You could always contact him through his eBay account (I forget what it is... look for signed Lone Wolf books...). Of course, as that's really something separate, he might not be too receptive to being contacted that way.

Buy a couple of books from him first, maybe. That'll sweeten him up.

[askhati]

Guys, I need some help.

I'm trying to find some info on what the political situation in the Hammerlands, Ghatan and Ogia looked like at about MS 5040. Who were the respective rulers, where were their capitals located, where were their borders with each other - everything. I tried using the BMM (Big Magnamund Map), but it did not indicate allegiances or time periods involved.

The reason I ask is because of a piece of writing I am planning to do, and I don't want to include a bunch of contradictory non-canon "facts" when I paint a picture of the Hammerlands, Blackshroud, and the Drakkar troops there (the story is about a Drakkar character in Blackshroud, so...). Any help would be very much appreciated.

[Honza]

If this helps...



The purple borders are taken from the Magnamund Companion, and resized to fit natural borders, like Hellswamp and Great Bor Range.

However, the Magnamund Companion maps show the situation in MS 5050 I think...

[askhati]

Odd... In LW 10, Cetza and Luomi are listed as Eruan towns, which only fell to the Hammerlands two years prior to LW 10. Luomi then gets retaken before LW shows up, but Cetza is still in the hands of the Hammerlanders. Also, Cetza is described as a "border town", while the map shows it to be well inside the Hammerlands...

Another oddity from LW 10 is that the armies that took Cetza and Luomi from the Eruans were described as "renegade Drakkarim warriors from the Hammerlands", implying - to my mind at least - that they were not operating with the full sanction of the ruler of the Hammerlands. However, when LW shows up at Cetza, the ruler of the Hammerlands - Shinzar - is there, along with Death Knight complements from Blackshroud. How is this explained?

Also, does anyone know what the relationship between the Hammerlanders, the Brigandi and the Drakkarim are within the Hammerlands? Shinzar fields those three as his main infantry during the battle of Cetza, and I was wondering which ones were dominant. The Death Knights were mentioned as having come from Blackshroud, and also having been trained there, implying a sizeable Drakkarim population. The Hammerlanders, Brigandi and Krorn might have been the guys to initially take Cetza and Luomi from the Eruans, although I have no evidence to back this theory up. The Drakkarim in general just don't strike me as the rebellious type who would cross the border and start sacking Eruan towns without specific orders from Blackshroud.

[Honza]

I think Cetza and Luomi count as Eruan towns. It is difficult to resize the borders from Magnamund Companion (quite small map) to fit the big map.

I suppose the Hammerlands border is: Moggador forest (to the river Torg), the path Agna-kor-Kuzim (including Zuttezna), along to the borders of Danarg. Then it copies the shape of Great Bor Range (including the Vale of Nurog) and then maybe the river Brol is more likely the border along to the Isle of Ghosts (which could be no-man's land).

The Ghatan includes only the area between rivers Torg and Ghat, the piedmont of Zandzordag Mountains and Kokozritzaga, the edge of Vorgta Forest and the piedmont of Nadulritzaga Mountains.

Skaror includes the whole Nadulritzaga Mountains, the Vorgta Forest, and the piedmont of Ogian Mountains and Ogshezar Mountains along to the Skaror Pass.

Ogia includes Ogian Mountains, Agna-kor-Kuzim path along to Xanar, the egde of the forest northwards of Luukos, and the piedmont of Ogshezar mountains (from Magador border along to the Skaror Pass.)

Another oddity from LW 10 is that the armies that took Cetza and Luomi from the Eruans were described as "renegade Drakkarim warriors from the Hammerlands"...

I always thought the Hammerlands hosted not only Drakkarim, but all renegades from nearby lands (Eruan bandits etc.)

[askhati]

So who owns block 29, the Danarg?

Also, it would appear that the Hammerlands are almost as large as Ghatan, Skaror and Ogia combined... Would this suggest that their military forces were quite sizeable compared to those other three? If Gnaag could have the last three Lorestones stored at Torgar, one gets the idea that the ruler of Ghatan did pretty much exactly what the Darklords did... Which makes one then wonder how much autonomy Shinzar had when he started dicking around on the border with Eru. Or was that all part of Gnaag's invasion plans?

[floribur]

Mar 4, 2010 16:28:52 GMT floribur said:

Mar 3, 2010 7:05:07 GMT Honza said:

And are maps also in novels? (Glory and Greed especially?) Thanks for information.

Yeah, this time we had real new maps!
You should buy the books, and not only for the maps, because they're very good (I only started Dragons of Lencia, but I read good things about Glory & Greed too).

Hi Honza.
Before talking about the Hammerlands, just one thing:
I made a mistake writing that the novels included maps: I just received Glory & Greed, and there's no map inside!

But I confirm for Dragons of Lencia, and I hadn't take time to give the informations which could interest you for your map:

Only major cities are visible on the map, and no new cities.

BUT there's some strange elements with this map:
About Lencia:
- Localization of Westhaven and Loyton is different than on LW15 map;
- Utulio is localized in right bank of the Turbant (like on the MC geographical map)
- Vark is written Uark.
About Kasland :
- Wesigar is written Westgar.
About Palmyrion:
- Localization of Scade and Nahsor is different than on LW18 map.
- Vanamor is called Uanan (but maybe the reason is explained later in the book?)
About Talestria:
-River Swarle comes directly from the Danarg (like on the MC geographical map).

I can't put a scan of the map here for copyright reasons, but if you want, I can write the localization differences on an extract of your map. But I think your map is more exact, at less for one reason: Scade can't be where the map shows the city (on the Tentarias shore) because LW18 text informs us that LW crosses a river city and not a littoral city.

[floribur]

Mar 18, 2010 13:59:49 GMT askhati said:

I'm trying to find some info on what the political situation in the Hammerlands, Ghatan and Ogia looked like at about MS 5040.

Hi Ashkati.
How many fantastic Magnamund projects do you have?

I don’t know any document mentioning facts about this part of Northern Magnamund in MS5040.
But we have texts about MS5050 (and a map, the Magnamund Companion political map Honza added on his map).
I worked with Zorkaan to write synthesis of the available sources about the Drakkarim states, including the Hammerlands, Ogia, Ghatan and Skaror (even if the two first are not really Drakkarim states). All that stuff was published, but… in french, for Le Grimoire du Magnamund, a big roleplaying book including The Darklands and Magic of Magnamund’s translations, and new exclusive texts. Zorkaan published too in a roleplaying magazine (Jeu De Rôle Magazine) a very interesting article developping Skaror’s history, and Kraagenskûl’s role in that country (illustrating how the Darklords took control over most of the Drakkarim states).

I try to make you a quick and approximative (re)translation, only about the Hammerlands, the country which seems to interest you most, if this can help (but you may already know all that):

The Hammerlands constitutes one of the most recent Helgedad allies, and is not strictly speaking a Drakkarim nation. This rough country was historically populated by clans of brigandi and more or less organized bandits from nearby Nyvoz, from where they were chased away in the years MS2590 by the Drakkarim invasion. After the fall of Vashna in MS3799, numerous Drakkarim refugees invested the country and mixed with the population. The Hammerlands soon become allied to the Darklands.
In MS5000, The Hammerlands is even one of the most active nations serving the cause of Naar in Magnamund. Their leader, immortal Baron Shinzar, among whom some murmur that he’s one of the Drakkarim Warlords having signed the Treaty of Darke with their blood to mean the allegiance of their people to the Darklords, is really a bloodthirsty and belligerent tyrant who tries hard for centuries to put the region in fire and in blood.
To bring to a successful conclusion his objectives of conquest, the Baron powerfully strengthened his citadel of Blackshroud, only bastion worthy of the name in these essentially forest and mountainous lands. Built on the western foothills of Mounts Tegaarn, Blackshroud controls the main pass crossing the range and constitutes a permanent threat for the Principality of Eru. In his strategy to use the Hammerlands as a delusion to divert the attentiveness of the Free Countries, Zagarna facilitated the installation in Blackshroud of powerful military training infrastructures, intended to entail Drakkarim units, besides the regular hammerlandese strengths and native troops of Krorns (hideous humanoid creatures and fond of human flesh from the Moggador and Akamazim forests) and of Ogron mercenaries (living essentially in the sorry lands of Zuttezna).
By an ironic joke of the fate, that’s among the Hammerlandese ranks that are henceforth recruited a not insignificant part of the Drakkarim warriors elite: the Death Knights, trained from their youngest age in the terrible Blackshroud pits of fight and separated from their families to make them extremely hardened beings. It’s as well among the hammerlandese ranks that are recruited candidates for the apprenticeship of the Right hand Magic by instructors specially come from Helgedad, intended to become powerful witches-warriors known as Ziranim. At last, the Hammerlands completed its power of striking by being equipped with an important contingent of Zaggonozod, the Drakkarim riders elite.
These Hammerlandese Death Knights, Zaggonozod and Ziranim feel a big contempt for the inhabitants of the Drakkarim historical countries, and quite particularly Nyvoz, doubtless a recollection of the hatred of their ancestors chased away from this country!

Mar 18, 2010 13:59:49 GMT askhati said:

Who were the respective rulers, where were their capitals located

For Ghatan and Ogia, the only rulers I know are, in MS5050: Kraagenskûl in Skaror (capital Cragmantle) / Dakushna in Ghatan (but he stays very few in Torgar, capital and only city) / Zegron in Ogia (capital Xanar)

Notice that LWRPG uses the Magnamund Companion source too for its encyclopaedic part, supposed to show the situation in MS5000, but lists the same rulers: that might be a mistake, but that’s very possible they already ruled these countries 50 years before. MS5040 being betwing the 2 dates, you can consider they are the rulers this year too.

Mar 18, 2010 13:59:49 GMT askhati said:

where were their borders with each other - everything. I tried using the BMM (Big Magnamund Map), but it did not indicate allegiances or time periods involved.

About the borders: Honza gave you all the information. I just add an extract of the map I made for Le Grimoire du Magnamund, showing in a little more precise way the borders of Northern Hammerlands, Ghatan, Skaror and Western Ogia. But I didn’t draw Southern Hammerlands, and for publication reasons, I couldn’t use colours, then that’s quite a sad map compared to Honza’s one…

Attachments:

[floribur]

Mar 19, 2010 8:33:25 GMT Honza said:

I think Cetza and Luomi count as Eruan towns. It is difficult to resize the borders from Magnamund Companion (quite small map) to fit the big map.

I agree with Honza: Cetza and Luomi should be Eruan towns.
But even if the work with the MC map is approximative, Cetza, at less, appears clearly on the map as an Hammerlandese city (Luomi could be either Eruan or Hammerlandese). That means for me that the Hammerlands could have captured Cetza before MS5050, during some older war. But the city would have been liberated during a new war between MS5050 and MS5074 –year of the Hammerlandese invasion mentioned in LW10. Probably few years after MS5050, 20 years being a « good » minimal time between 2 wars.

Mar 19, 2010 8:33:25 GMT Honza said:

I always thought the Hammerlands hosted not only Drakkarim, but all renegades from nearby lands (Eruan bandits etc.)

This « renegade » word made me wonder too who they were exactly. The Hammerlands could be a refuge for any renegades from nearby countries (and this could even be an historical « vocation », a sort of « land of the refugees », but mainly for bandits and criminals -like the Wildlands with Lastlands criminals). But this doesn’t explain why Joe talks about Drakkarim renegades, that’s not the same thing.
I think this could be an heritage of the MS3799 events I mentioned in the Hammerlands text, when defeated Drakkarims ran away til the Hammerlands, and maybe were considered by the Darklords as deserters and renegades. Still that era, Hammerlandese Drakkarim could then still be named « renegade Drakkarim » : MS5076 Shinzar Drakkarim troops, called « renegade » are perfectly regular troops.