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Post by Zipp on Nov 14, 2004 18:33:07 GMT
I've been playing fighting fantasy for the first time ever and was surprised that every time I died, I had no problem with startingf entirely over. None of that save business, none of that well let me reroll once business, nothing.
Now I have a theory about this: It has to do with the choice of paths. I think that since Lone Wolf is more story based, we feel the choices we made matter more. Thus, we hate to die and choose an entirely different path. At least, that's why I always fight having to start all over. I would make a lot of the same choices just from a story element. Also, it seems that Lone Wolf has more common spots where you will end up no matter what paths you take. Thus, Lone Wolf could be played time after time for the story and the challenge, but not so much, as with a regular choose your own, for variety.
Or is it just that you die less in Fighting Fantasy.
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Post by Zipp on Nov 14, 2004 18:34:50 GMT
Also, just as a side note, Lone Wolf, if he undertook the challenges of the Fighting Fantasy books, could beat them easily, what with his unlimited use of kai abilities and such.
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Post by outspaced on Nov 14, 2004 19:00:07 GMT
Of course, if you thought Zakhan Kimah and the Chaos-master were hard, try playing through any of Jonathan Green's Fighting Fantasy books (53: Spellbreaker, 56: Knights of Doom, 59: Curse of the Mummy) since he usually has about four or five Kimah-equivalents per adventure. The FF series is very different in style to Lone Wolf, and some adventures are, indeed, great fun to re-read if your character dies; but--and I think this is equally true of Lone Wolf--the more familiarity one has with the adventure, the more likely one is to use "save points". So, if you've read The Warlock of Firetop Mountain as many times as I have over the past eighteen years, regardless of the writing/gameplay style, you're still much more likely to use "save points".
Incidentally, are you talking about the recent reprints, or the original series? The reprints have a different numbering system, and currently they've only re-released about 20 of them (out of 63--1-59 + Sorcery 1-4), so you might not be able to get hold of the Jon Green books I mentioned except second-hand.
Many of the ones that have been reprinted are the more "classic" adventures, which seem to have more replayability than certain other Fighting Fantasy titles. Also, Livingstone's terse writing style, particularly in his earlier books, means that restarting his adventures from the start won't actually take very long anyway. Lone Wolf, on the other hand, has more varied and descriptive writing, which is great for setting the scene, but can grate if you're purely intent on finishing a particularly devious adventure.
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Post by Zipp on Nov 15, 2004 7:39:50 GMT
Ah, i wondered why it said reprint. Please tell me there not abridged. I don't think I could handle another nasty surprise like that.
I only own two, and just bought them: Citadel of Chaos Deathtrap Dungeon
and am considering Creature of Havoc
I was surprised at the difficulty of the monsters, now that you mention it. Lone Wolf still kicks ass with them, though. I converted one or two.
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Post by outspaced on Nov 15, 2004 8:59:20 GMT
Heh heh! No, the reprint series hasn't been abridged. The entire original series went out of print in the late 1990s (the last Fighting Fantasy book to be printed in the original series was 59: Curse of the Mummy in 1995), and Wizard Books decided to resurrect the series in August 2002--the 20th anniversary of the publication of the original The Warlock of Firetop Mountain.
There have been a few things fixed here and there in the reprints, though, so they should be slightly better, in fact. It's interesting that you mentioned Creature of Havoc, because it was technically impossible to complete the original printing unless you assumed something rather than taking the text at face value (trying to give nothing away). In the reprint, this has been fixed.
For many, Steve Jackson's Creature of Havoc is actually the quintessential Fighting Fantasy adventure, and perhaps one of the best gamebooks ever written. It is a difficult adventure, but on completion of it, particularly the first time around, you'll really feel a real sense of achievement. And through both the rules and the gameplay, Jackson makes more use of puzzles than super-hard fights in that particular book. I'd heartily recommend it.
In the reprints series, I'd also recommend Jackson's four-book Sorcery mini-series, which is a bit like Lone Wolf in that you take the same character through from the start of Book 1 to the end of Book 4 (The Shamutanti Hills, Khare--Cityport of Traps, The Seven Serpents, The Crown of Kings).
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columbob
Kai Lord
Up the Irons!
Posts: 161
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Post by columbob on Nov 15, 2004 12:50:41 GMT
Incidentally, are you talking about the recent reprints, or the original series? The reprints have a different numbering system, and currently they've only re-released about 20 of them (out of 63--1-59 + Sorcery 1-4), so you might not be able to get hold of the Jon Green books I mentioned except second-hand. Actually, I don't know if you've noticed, but the reprints are solely the Livingstone/Jackson titles, none from other authors. The next two books in line, Starship Traveller and Freeway Fighter, are also both penned by Ian Livingstone, and I don't know if they have any plans to publish the rest. Livingstone is supposedly writing a new book too.
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Post by Zipp on Nov 15, 2004 19:25:08 GMT
I guess I'll go get it then. Amazon is great for these, get them, with shipping, at 10 a book.
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Post by outspaced on Nov 16, 2004 9:13:02 GMT
Actually, I don't know if you've noticed, but the reprints are solely the Livingstone/Jackson titles Yeah, it has been a topic of some note on the Gamebooks and the Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks mailing lists for some time. Some claim it's to fill their own coffers with gold pieces, others claim it's because they are the best example of the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks (*coffcoff* ), while still others reckon it's because of the copyright issues and obstinate authors not wanting their books reprinted with Jackson's and Livingstone's names on the front (again). I am rather looking forward to Livingstone's "new" gamebook, though the working title, "Eye of the Dragon", is the same as a 134-section mini-adventure first published in Livingstone's 1982 book on role-playing Dicing With Dragons, so it will be interesting to compare the two once it is released.
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ra
Kai Lord
Posts: 6
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Post by ra on Nov 19, 2004 15:10:38 GMT
I've been playing fighting fantasy for the first time ever and was surprised that every time I died, I had no problem with startingf entirely over. None of that save business, none of that well let me reroll once business, nothing. Or is it just that you die less in Fighting Fantasy. I remember the difficulty and quality of the books varied quite a lot. It probably depended on the author. Some were easy and some were just too damn hard! But its been ages since I read them so my memory is a bit fuzzy on the issue.
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Post by Relenoir on Nov 21, 2004 22:48:08 GMT
I have to agree. Although I know I read several FF books years ago (can't remember which ones though!), these were the only ones that impressed me enough to hunt them down again when I started rebuilding my gamebook collection last year.
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Post by StoneCold on Dec 10, 2004 0:28:54 GMT
They've just got the boxed set in. I think given what's happened with Lone Wolf, I'm not going to hesitate too long about getting it. Remember a time when you probably thought Lone Wolf would last forever and that there'd always be a gamebook section in the bookstore? don't know what it's like over there, but in Singapore there no longer is any such thing. When I saw FF reprinted it was almost like an anchronistic boom. I sure hope it lasts.
I think that FF was more difficult simply because it was less linear than Lone Wolf. But then as someone mentioned that's probably because there is a lot more descriptive detail about characters and places and creatures, and therefore why we care about the millieu all the more.
I remember that Warlock of Firetop Mountain gave me real headaches until I realised that inevitably, I TEXThadTEXT to draw a map. Then it was easier. By comparison, I found Return to Firetop Mountain way easier by comparison.
I've always felt really loyal to Lone Wolf because of the fleshing out of people and places, and also because Gary Chalk's art gave a sort of unity to the series (first few books anyway). FF did start this, coming up with Titan, and the books started to reflect this world too, which is when I started liking it. Some continuity and relationship.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 10, 2004 19:33:38 GMT
Okay, I need to change this thread to: Fighting Fantasy HARDER perhaps?
I started Citadel a month ago and have played it four times a week since then. Last night I finally gave up.
The problem comes not from stats, in fact, the Fighting Fantasy is BETTER about stats then Lone Wolf, as you really can beat most of the books without too much difficulty with low low low scores.
The problem comes from the fact that if you don't make the exact right choices, there ain't no way stats are gonna do anything for you. For instance: In Citadel, you have really only two courses available to you. You have to get either the amulet or the ointment to protect against the Ganjees, and if you get the amulet, then you can't make your way to the library, there to find the combination code to get into the boss' chambers (which for some inane reason equals an instant loss if you don't have it). I may be wrong that you can't refind the library if you encounter the SCOUTS you give you the amulet, and would love to be wrong about it, but I don't think that I am. Also, you really should go the GARK route, so that you can get the hairbrush which you need in order to possibly get the Golden Fleece which you need to beat the Hydra (without using THREE creature copy spells). Since these all lie at regular intervals during the course of the book, that means it's a pretty linear course that you MUST follow to beat the book. Not to mention actually fighting Balthus Dire, which is the most cleverly written piece of the book. They did do a good job on his section.
I'm not overly annoyed at this, since it was only the first one I've read, but I'm hoping that Deathtrap Dungeon and Creature of Havoc prove better.
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Post by outspaced on Dec 11, 2004 10:47:42 GMT
The Fighting Fantasy books are fairly notorious for that kind of thing. In many cases, deviate from the solution path even once and the book becomes impossible to complete. This is not always a bad thing; Creature of Havoc is very hard, and has a definite path that you must follow, but the storytelling aspect of the gamebook is superb, very engaging, with lots of things to keep you interested. Annoyingly, not all the authors went to such lengths to keep the reader interested; many just went the 'let's made a super-hard adventure that can only be completed one way' route. A shame. Hint for Citadel of Chaos, Zipp: You must have the Ointment from the Goblins in the courtyard to get past the Gangees; ignore the amulet. Also, try getting captured after finding the combination lock number in the Library. Hope it helps.
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Post by Scarecrow on Dec 11, 2004 11:17:51 GMT
I'm not overly annoyed at this, since it was only the first one I've read, but I'm hoping that Deathtrap Dungeon and Creature of Havoc prove better. Personally I've always thought that Steve Jackson's books were too hard, and Ian Livingstone's too boring. The best of Fighting Fantasy is found later in the series; my personal favourite is #44, Legend of the Shadow Warriors.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 12, 2004 5:48:47 GMT
Thanks for the help Outspaced.
Actually, I had discovered the "One and Only" path a little bit ago. I'd been getting the ointment for a long time, and had deviated only once to try for the amulet. Then, I couldn't... etc etc etc etc and that's when I learned that there really was a true path.
But thanks for confirming, I had hoped that there was another way other than having to get the... and having to go the the... and having to steal the... but no.
Started Death Trap Dungeon. It kicked the living crap out of me. But I already like it better.
I think I'm gonna throw Lone Wolf into the Citadel, and see how he does. Just have to do a conversion or two and we'll try it.
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